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Hello, and thanks for joining us, for sustaining us here on KLCS Public Media.

I'm David Nazar.

Last week we brought you part one of a two part series, Israel and Palestine.

Is there a solution?

And last wee we talked all about the history of the Israelis and the Palestinians.

This week we talked solutions because a history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict certainly has been overwhelmingly complicated and emotional for both rooted in decades of fear, anger, mistrust and war.

October 7th brought this crisis to the world stage, with Israelis telling the world never again and Palestinians telling the world free Palestine.

The war that ensued after the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel has divided the United States and divided the world.

Here is part two of my special series Israel and Palestine with care.

The Council on American-Islamic relations care is one of the most well known Muslim activist organizations in the U.S., and I recently traveled to Orange County, California to meet with Hussam A. Hussam is the CEO of Care California and the Executive Director of the greater LA Office.

Who saw me lose with care.

Thank you so muc for being back again this week.

Thank you for having me again, David.

Certainly.

And last week we talked about the emotional and complicated history of Israel, Palestine, Jews and Muslims.

We went back 100 years, if not more.

Let's advance the story and fast forward.

We must talk about solutions.

Since October 7th, horrible, horrific pain and suffering Israelis, Palestinians, etc.. Begi with what you view as a logical and attainable solution.

Well, in orde for us to talk about a solution, we need to first address who is part of the solution.

You know, we have past Indians and Israelis wh obviously own their own affairs.

We can't mandate on them.

But there's a rul that we as Americans, government or people can do to hel create the positive conditions for that peace.

We haven't done that as a us.

If anything, we've we'v kind of sent in sort of peace.

We've sent weaponry.

We've sent, political, diplomatic support, economic support that only enforces the occupation and forces the marginalization an dehumanization of Palestinians.

So that is something we can talk.

You know, obviously, we're talking to a viewership that is American, and we have a role to play.

We want to humanize both sides, humanize Israelis, Palestinians, and be part of the solution rather than cheering for war on either side.

Now, for the Palestinians and the Israelis, they're going to need leadershi that will be accepting of peace.

And I'm not claiming, the Palestinians have been, shouting for peace and rallying for peace over the years.

But I also understand why, because they haven't been offered anything other than crumbs.

In a in reality, Israel since 1967, since it occupied the West Bank and Gaz has had an opportunity to say, we're here to help yo establish a Palestinian state.

It hasn't.

What it has done is slowly grabbing more of the land of the Palestinians, taking that land.

And this is way lon before Hamas came to existence.

What we're seeing is Israel building illegal settlements, 350 plus illegal settlements on Palestinian land, confiscated land from Palestinians, installing hundreds and hundreds of checkpoints that only make the lif of both Palestinians miserable.

These are not the acts and the actions of a state or a government that wants peace.

Netanyahu himself has boasted, saying.

As the current prime ministe said over the years, he has done everything he ca to prevent a Palestinian state.

Just recently the foreign minister of Israel, said, it is not a good time to have a Palestinians state.

The finance minister, an ultra right, individual has talked about this is a great moment now with a Trump administration to actually, take over, and announce, Israeli authority over the West Bank.

So these are not the acts of a country or a government that wants peace, let alone that actuall the Arab countries Arab League in 2002 offered them under afte a summit in Beirut in Lebanon.

My hometown, they offered Israel peace.

You know, the famous, peace initiative, which was pretty fair in the sense that it offere Israel full recognition, full, diplomatic relations, full normalization with a complete withdrawal as the UN resolutions require UN resolution 242 requires for Israel to withdraw from from the occupied territories, West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem, and allow a Palestinian state to be established.

You know, for the Palestinians, gesture of peace would be very simple, allowing a Palestinian state, number one, number two, allowing for the refugees to return to their homeland.

Now, as a nonpartizan, someone who's interested in human rights and peace in that region, I would say there are two solutions.

Hopefully the third option is not an option.

All out war, a genocide.

I know neither you nor me, consider that as a viable, humane solution.

The two humane solutions would be either a one state in which Palestinians, Israeli with all their backgrounds and, diversity can celebrat having one country that is multi national, multi-ethnic, which is how the world is today, like in America, wher everyone's rights are respected.

Everyone has equal rights, equal responsibilities.

And together they build the country.

Look, you know I know you have Muslim friends.

Christian friends, Muslim Arab, same thing.

Jewish friends.

And we get along together even when we disagree.

We only want what's best.

Because what is good for you is good for me.

What's good for your children is good for my children.

The other option, obviously, is a two state solution where we create some clear, free, independent Palestinian state on the land of the Wes Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, where Palestinians own their own affairs, they own their land, they own the access to the sea, their own the space.

They can build a seapor where they can build an airport, unlike what was offered to them during the Oslo agreemen and the Camp David agreements, where it was, a pseudo stat where they have little control over their land, let alone not even control over their entire lan of what was historic Palestine.

So in its defense, in 1967, Israel, yes, took back land in war, which it won in war and said, you don't get land back until you make peace with us, until you recognize Israel an say, we have the right to exist.

We have the right to survive.

You do not present an existential threat.

We have to know we have a future in this Middle East.

You do not get that land back.

And yes, Israel held on to that land because there has been no assurance or reassurance from the Palestinian since, from Palestinian Authority, from the PLO, from Yasser Arafat, from Mahmoud Abbas, from anyone from Hamas, that Israel can live there in peace.

In fact, Hamas's own charter, I believe, based in the 80s, says no Jews allowed.

They will not rest until Israel is annihilated from the Mideast map.

And it is there no more.

So I hear you with the argument, but I believe that when you omit certain facts, it doesn't give the totality o the argument for so many people who are trying to effect change and say there has to be a solution.

So that's one point.

Then you talked sort of about in my words, are not going to be verbatim.

So forgive me how the Palestinian are sort of in this landlocked area and Israe is locking them into that land.

And I say to so many of my amazing Palestinian Muslim friends, if you can just sort of back away from this equation and, and take a view point in a more objective way, it is the Palestinians own leadership because you were talking leadership.

Hamas, Hezbollah keeps intervenin on behalf of Hamas when there.

For the last couple of decades, there has been no war between Lebanon and Israel in terms of Israel said, you're right, do your own thing.

Correct.

And so on October 8th, the day after the October 7th Hamas attack, the brutal, horrific savage attack on Israel Hezbollah jumped in on October 8th and started launching its missiles and its rockets and its drones in support of of Hamas.

There was no need for that.

And so I believ when we talk about leadership, is Bibi Netanyahu perfect?

Certainly not.

Is there a perfect solution?

Certainly not.

You mentioned the Oslo Accords was a potential statehood for the Palestinians and Israel's, statehood, the perfect equation?

No, but it was a start to something great.

I believe that what the Palestin Let's give the Palestinians a good part of that land that was rightfully theirs.

In the UN partition in 1948 which the Palestinians rejected.

You know, they want eventually all of Jerusalem, as you know, they're saying right now we're content with East Jerusalem.

There's a lot of land that is still in contention.

So when you're a suffering people, that your own people are causing this suffering.

Let's begin somewhere.

Let's start with your own statehood, your own land.

You need human rights.

You need civil rights.

You need dignity.

You need schools.

You need mosques.

You need daycare centers.

You need universities.

You need bridges, roads, tunnels.

And I don't mean the tunnels that are being built underground.

The billions of dollars spent every year in European Union and United States money to fight Israel.

I'm talking about mone that's given to them every year, because that is a solution.

The Palestinians could have an amazing state.

Why don't they take some of that money to build an aboveground infrastructure, to begin a solution that, rather than amass weapons and build an underground concrete maze of a tunnel system?

So I believe that there has to be some sort of meeting of a brain trust and understand that there are two arguments to be listened to, but we can't admit all the facts.

So when you present the facts and I hear you and I'm so appreciative that we're discussing this, but there's certain context that has to be given.

So when everybody wants to say, well, Israel is a occupier or they're an oppressor, this is an apartheid state, I believe there could be nothing further from the truth, because Israe is the only nation in a 22 Arab nation world in the Mideas that says, you are welcome here, come into our country, become a citizen, be a member of the Knesset, o our Parliament, on our Congress.

It is not done anywhere else.

And so those acts of kindness have to be built upon.

But you can't omit fact.

And I think we have to begi there with the infrastructure.

Is everything perfect that the Israelis do?

Certainly not.

And anyone who says that they are a Pollyanna to see the innocent civilian deaths in Gaza, it is heartbreaking, the women and the children.

It is heartbreaking.

But another solution is Hamas and Hezbollah, for that matter, never fight conventional warfare.

They bury themselves amid the hospitals and the daycare centers and the schools.

What is Israel to do?

Israel is the only nation in the history of the world that gets on the phon and calls the leaders and says, we are going to be here, we're going to be there, or they're dropped leaflet days, weeks in advance and say, we are going to be there.

We're going to be there when you can, when you are at war with the terrorists who fights underground and uses human shields and women and children, it's difficult.

It's not perfect.

On the Israeli side, I am not a Pollyanna.

I want to see a two state solution.

I want there to be peace.

But when we have this open honest dialog, we have to bring more facts to the table.

Because when Israel is continually demonized and vilified, i only creates more anti-Semitism.

And so many people, whether it's the UN or university professors or presidents of universities or protesters at universities all throughout the streets of the nation are saying, Death to Israel, death to the Jews.

But then they say, well, it's really the Zionism and it's the government.

There is a veneer of anti-Semitism.

And so you have an honest discussion that has to be accept.

And I let you retort, thank you.

I was so tempted to interrupt so many times because facts are important.

I agree with you.

And I'm going to go over a few at least perspectives on facts on the 19th, the 1967 war, Israel initiated this war.

This is there' no debate in history about that.

It was not Arab countries that initiated that war.

It was Israel initiated the war and led to the occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza and the Golan Heights, which Israel illegally annexed from Syria.

Again, Israel has a long histor of engaging in illegal behavior.

Israel is in violation of about 70 UN resolutions, security Council and General Assembly, including the right of return for the Palestinians.

One of the earliest resolutions 19 the, you know, 194 the resolution about ending the occupation.

Now, what I was talking about when I said land grab, I was talking about after the occupation, after the invasion and the occupation of the Palestinian territories Israel engaged in, what do you and would consider a violation of international law?

It's actually genocidal to force people, you know, it's called ethnic cleansing, forced people out of their homes.

This is way after 1948, after Israel destroyed 400 Palestinian villages and towns and forced 750,000 Palestinians out.

This is in the West Bank and Gaza, where Israel continued, continues to grab land and next land, building settlements where only Jews can live on this.

In these settlements, only Jews can drive to roads on roads from Israel proper to these settlements, illegal settlements, Israelis have access to Palestinian water.

They can build swimming pools.

Palestinians have to struggle for drinking water.

They can't even collect rainwater without being fined by Israel in their own land.

In the West Bank.

You mentioned Israel is the only land in the in the region that tells people welcome.

No, that's not correct.

It's the only country that actually allows people i on the basis of their religion.

A Palestinian can never, never be allowed into Israel unless they probably all convert to Judaism.

Maybe that is a solution.

So why are there so many Palestinian Muslims and Arab Muslims in Israel?

Those are the original population.

These are the indigenous people of Palestine who chose not to leave, or were not forced to leave because they're lived in the triangle, the Arab triangl in northern Israel, where it's still overwhelmingly over a majority.

You know, that's the these are the 150,000 Palestinians, indigenous Palestinians who stayed one Israel declared its state.

Now they became about 2 million of, you know, almost 20% of the of the population of Israel.

Those people stayed.

And Israel has done everything it can to make their lives difficult.

You know, there's little debate among Israelis of human rights backgrounds that Palestinians are treated the way the black people were treated in the 50s and the 40s and before the civil right movement and civil rights laws.

They don't have equal access to education.

It's not the same funding.

Even when you talk about safety, Israelis, you know, who are not Palestinian, who are not Muslim or Christian, have safety, bomb shelters, Palestinian Arabs or Palestinians in Israel don't have the same funding.

But that's all.

Besides, on the side one, you mentioned also the issue of dealing with Gaza.

What's going on, what ICC, the International Court, Criminal Court, th International Court of Justice?

I see, I see, what, so many countries.

So what every human rights organization has described as a genocide or potentially acts towards a genocide have described Israel has destroyed literally every single school in Gaza, almost every, university, most of the hospitals and the clinics, has targeted people in shelters that it declared safe places.

Israel did not have to kill 17,000 people to kill Hamas.

This is not a war.

This is actually, at this point, collective punishment something that we've seen other brutal governments do to, to people when, when they engage in resistance.

The Palestinian people have th right to resist an occupation.

This is not you know, terrorism is one.

And I would not have a second thought about it.

When an innocent person is is targeted, whether it's Israeli or Palestinian, it should be unequivocally condemned.

I will never hesitate as a human rights activist, but to target Israeli military occupation that is the right of the Palestinian people is not terrorism for them.

And Israel has no right under international law to punish the Palestinian people, children.

What we're talking about today is targeting of aid workers, targeting of journalists.

Over 200 journalists have been killed.

Hundreds of of aid workers, of medical staff have been, killed wounded or arrested by Israel.

10,000 Palestinians are illegally detained as hostages by Israel Way before October 7th.

And the reason this this doesn't help the future.

I know we're debating what is happening today, but for me is unless we acknowledge the the gross human rights violations that are happening today, how do we expect Palestinians to accept?

How do we expec the whole neighborhood Israel?

You know, I'm sure you know that very well.

Of course, I don't mean it in a disrespectful way.

But for the viewers, Israel is not in Nebraska or near Nebraska or Omaha or Israel is in the middle of 2 billion Muslims, 40 million Arabs in a neighborhood that that actually is angry as they watch on social media today, beheaded children, dismembered children Palestinians being burnt alive.

It doesn't help peace.

Even if Israel offers peace today, I worry that there is little trust that exists, little confidence today in the leadership.

I'm all for a leadership on the Palestinian side, on the Israeli side, on the other side, that shows steps towards building of confidence.

I feel the Arab government including the PLO, by the way, the PLO has accepted a two state solution long time ago, the even Hamas changed its charter and acknowledged and accepted, said we will accept the two state solution, the only one in the whole region that has said no is Israel.

And I don't believe I do believe there was a time when many Israelis were leaning towards that.

I think I hope now we we see a revival of that movement.

So they accept a two state solution.

But again, omitting facts isn't fair to the viewer because they expect it.

They, expect a two state solution.

However, on their terms, what counts?

Well, the terms are they wants all of Jerusalem.

They want Israel to comply with certain things.

Israel is a is it' people are frightened people and history has demonstrated overwhelmingly that Israel has a right to be concerned about its security.

When you have neighbors surrounding you who again, want to annihilate you and eliminate you from the map and have called for nothing, no less than the 6 million Jews that were murdered during the Holocaust, and Iran through its proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah and the Hutus, and to many more to be named, have declared to the world that we will not rest until Israel suffers the fate.

The European Jews, suffered in the concentration camps, and Hamas takes its marching orders, and Hezbollah take his marching orders from Iran.

And no one says anything.

And the world says nothing.

I question how and not you, a person of great faith and great conviction, but how people can say well, Israel doesn't want peace again is their crime against humanity that I have asked for recognition to survive, to allow them to prosper, to allow them to have a land, to allow them to exist again, there is not one leader who has said, we recognize Israel's right to exist.

And I'm talking about in the Arab world as far as, the people attacking Israel, they are not going to be happ until Israel is there no more.

So this all has to be put into context.

So let's advance the story in our last few minutes.

But can I quickly?

Yes, please.

Because it's this might be 20 years ago today almost all the Arab countries, eithe openly or privately, recognize.

Israel, but not Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

And that's the source of the terror.

You're one is almost in conflict with the entire region.

It has little allies in the region.

That's true.

Hamas is an organization.

It's not even the official representative of the Palestinian people.

It's not even the PLO.

Hezbollah is another organization.

And I can assure you these organizations will have no existence.

You know what Hamas?

What does Hamas stand for in Arabic?

Halacha and McCalmont?

Islamiya it's th Islamic Movement for resistance.

Hezbollah calls itself the Islamic Resistance.

The minute that occupation ends, nobody would even waste their their time talking to this group because they are they are the byproduct of an occupation.

Yeah, there's a difference.

Hussam, when you say resistance, that's really sugarcoating the argument.

There's there's resistance and then there's brutal, savage terrorists.

And so to to co join and co-mingle those two words is somewhat disingenuous to the public.

They are a terrorist organization who seeks nothin but the destruction of Israel.

End of story.

So well I'll have to disagree on this one.

I would say the premise o their existence is resistance.

The premise of Israel's existence is to protect its people.

The premise of the existence of the Israeli army is to protect the Israeli state.

Have they both all sides committed acts that we can easily clearly describe as terrorism?

Absolutely right.

But it doesn't den the premise of their existence.

Why the context of why they exist?

What I'm saying is those groups, including PLO and Fatah and the Pflp, would not exis if there's no more occupation.

So for us, what we need to do is recognize today's reality.

The reality is today, everybody's tired.

The Middle East is jus people want to move on, right?

They want to have they want to have peace.

They want to be able to have a future for their children.

But for us to dwell on, okay, well, Hamas doesn't want to exist.

Well, you know, the Likud party doesn't want it doesn't solve the problem.

What we need to do is make sure that we dea with states international law, the international law requires an end of that occupation.

Can I invite you back for another two part series, in the next few months so we can further this discussion?

I, so appreciative of you being here and allowing us to have a dialog.

I know the format is different for our viewers.

I have never done anything like this.

You asked me if we could have a one on one interview, and I said, you know what?

I will not silence, censor, or cancel your voice because there is not someone from a representative of the Jewish community.

You would ask for it to have an interview as a one on one.

And I am so appreciative of the content you gave and I hope we continue our discussion.

This has been, informative, and I believe that this is a talk that must be had and must be continued.

Absolutely.

I mean, I know I recognize these are not easy discussions on topics, but they have to be made because at the end of the day, we want to see people over ther thrive the way we thrive here.

We can disagree.

We have left right liberals, conservatives.

We just finished a difficult election.

I think the people in that region deserv to have the same harmony future, opportunities for their children.

And I hope it will happen.

With some dilution with the Counci on American-Islamic relations.

Kara, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, David, for having me.

Now for more informatio about our program, all you have to do is click on KLCS.org and then click Contact Us.

Send us your questions, send us your comments, even your story ideas so we can hear from you and certainly know you can contact me personally on X. DavidNazarNews all one word, DavidNazarNews or just go to DavidNazarNews all one word on YouTube.

That's my YouTube channel.

You know, I'll get back with you and be sure to catch our program here on PBS or catch us on the PBS app.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I'm David Nazar You.

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