Interview with Rep. Pramila Jayapal

>> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES THIS WEEK, REPRESENTATIVE PRAMILA JAYAPAL OF WASHINGTON STATE, DEMOCRAT, JAYAPAL CHAIRS THE CONGRESSIONAL PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS.

SHE WAS PREVIOUSLY A CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST AND MADE HISTORY AS THE FIRST INDIAN-AMERICAN WOMAN TO SERVE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WELCOME TO YOU, REPRESENTATIVE JAYAPAL.

IT'S BEEN A FEW YEARS SINCE WE SPOKE, SO WE ARE THRILLED TO GET YOU BACK HERE.

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, BONNIE, FOR HAVING ME.

I AM DELIGHTED TO BE WITH YOU!

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHEN WE DID SPEAK LAST, YOU HAVE RECENTLY TAKEN OVER THE PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS.

HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT AND TO STAY IN THE GOOD GRACES OF THE PRESIDENT, WHO IS TAKING HITS FROM -- FROM PROGRESSES LEFT AND RIGHT?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, BONNIE, THE PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS IS ALMOST 100 MEMBERS STRONG.

WE ARE OVER 40 PERCENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS.

WE HAVE CONTINUED TO GROW AND BUILD OUR POWER.

AND WE WERE OUT THERE FIGHTING FOR THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

AND THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR WITH ME ABOUT HOW MUCH HE APPRECIATES THAT.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN A BIGGER CHAMPION, FRANKLY, FOR THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA OTHER THAN THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF IN TERMS OF WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO PUSH FORWARD.

AND I SHOULD BE CLEAR THAT THE FACT THAT HE IS PUSHING FOR THESE BOLD POPULIST, PROGRESSIVE, TRANSFORMATIONAL IDEAS COMES OF COURSE FROM THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT THAT HAS CONTINUED TO BUILD OVER THE LAST MANY YEARS, BUT IN REALITY, HE IS ADVOCATING FOR AND PUTTING FORTH TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE VERY POWERFUL BULLY PULPIT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHAT I THINK IS THE MOST PROGRESSIVE AGENDA WE HAVE SEEN YET.O I'M THRILLED TO BE FIGHTING WITH HIM AND FOR THE SAME THINGS THAT HE LAID OUT TO US IN CONGRESS A YEAR AGO HE CAME AND ADJUST CONGRESS IN MARCH OF 2021.

WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT, THANKS TO PROGRESSIVES AS WELL, SUPPORTING THIS AGENDA.

AND I WISH WE HAD BEEN ABLE TO GET BILL BACK BETTER DONE AS WELL.

IT WOULDN'T HAVE PASSED THE HOUSE IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR PROGRESSIVES.

BUT I THINK OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE VERY TIGHT MARGINS IN THE SENATE, AND WE ARE TURNED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE CAN STILL GET DONE.

LET'S NOT FORGET HOW MUCH HAS HAPPENED THANKS TO PROGRESSIVES: STIMULUS CHECKS IN PEOPLE'S POCKETS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED THE WAY PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO WEATHER THE PANDEMIC, SHOTS IN ARMS, THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN, 1.9 TRILLION DOLLARS PACKAGE THAT WAS INCREDIBLY PROGRESSIVE, PLUS THE BIGGEST INVESTMENT IN TRANSPORTATION, NOT JUST ROADS AND BRIDGES, BUT ALSO THINGS THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO PROGRESSIVES LIKE TV NETWORKS AND ELECTRIC GRID WORK AND PUBLIC TRANSIT, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT PROGRESSIVES HAVE BEEN PUSHING FOR FOR SO LONG.

IN THE WORK WE STILL HAVE TO DO A SUBSTANTIAL, AND WE ARE WORKING WITH THE PRESIDENT, WITH THE WHITE HOUSE, AND PUSHING ON THE SENATE TO TRY TO GET THOSE THINGS DONE AS WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHY, THEN, IS HIS APPROVAL RATING AS LOW AS IT IS, DEPENDING ON WHICH PULL YOU READ, MAYBE IN THE 40s, SOME AS LOW AS HIGH 30s?

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

ESPECIALLY WITH THE TWO NOW VERY STRONG EMPLOYMENT -- UNEMPLOYMENT RATE REPORTS COMING OUT SHOWING THAT UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN THIS COUNTRY IS PRETTY LOW?

>> Rep. Jayapal: YES.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY STUNNING.

WE HAVE CREATED OVER 7 MILLION NEW JOBS IN JUST 13 MONTHS.

WE HAVE CUT HUNGER BY 32 PERCENT.

WE HAVE CUT CHILD POVERTY AND HALF.

BUT, BONNIE, I THINK OF IT IS TAKING ITS TOLL ON PEOPLE.

I THINK IT HAS BEEN A ROUGH TWO YEARS WITH COVID, AND I THINK IT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO SEE THE END TO ALL OF THAT.

AND SO, I THINK THAT IS PART OF IT.

I ALSO THINK THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION OUT THERE.

YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS WHO CRITICIZED THE PRESIDENT EVERY SINGLE DAY VOTE NO ON THESE BILLS THAT THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM VOTED NO ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

WE CALL IT VOTING NO IN TAKING THE GO.

THEN THEY GO HOME AND WRITE ABOUT THE THINGS THEY BROUGHT BACK TO THEIR COMMUNITIES WHEN IN FACT THEY VOTED AGAINST PEOPLE'S INTEREST.

SO I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT.

I THINK THE FINAL THING IS THAT THERE ARE STILL MANY CHALLENGES, AND I THINK THAT THE FAILURE TO BE ABLE TO PASS UNIVERSAL PRE-K AND CHILDCARE SO FAR, BECAUSE OF THE SENATE, NOT BECAUSE OF THE HOUSE, NOT BECAUSE PROGRESSIVES, BUT BECAUSE OF THE SENATE, THE FAILURE TO TAKE ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE SO FAR IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE WATCHING, AND I THINK IT IS WHY WE DO HAVE TO DO WITH THE PRESIDENT LAID OUT SPEECH, TO THE STATE OF THE UNION.

WE HAVE TO DELIVER ON THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO CUT COSTS FOR AMERICANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, CUTTING THE COST OF PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGS, CUTTING COST OF CHILDCARE, TAKING ACTION ON CLIMATE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO YOU THINK IS JUST NOT TOOTING HIS OWN HORN ENOUGH?

IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM?

I MEAN, YOU LOOK AT TRUMP WHO NEVER STOPPED TOOTING HIS HORN, WHETHER IT WAS FACTUALLY ACCURATE, WHAT HE WAS SAYING OR NOT.

YOU AMERICANS JUST WANT TO PRESIDENT THAT BRAGS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HE OR SHE IS BRAGGING FACTUALLY?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, HOPEFULLY WE ARE ALL GOING TO BRAG FACTUALLYUT I TAKE YOUR POINT.

I MEAN, I DO THINK THE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO BE OUT THERE TOOTING HIS OWN HORN, TOOTING OUR HORN IN TERMS OF DEMOCRATS AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE.

ALL OF US NEED TO DO THAT.

AND I THINK SOMETIMES WHAT HAPPENS IS THE 24/7 NEWS CYCLE IS SUCH THAT PEOPLE ONLY WANT TO FOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT ARE BAD.

YOU KNOW, WHAT DIVISIONS ARE HAPPENING?

WHAT DEMOCRATS ARE FIGHTING WITH OTHER DEMOCRATS, VERSUS ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THE REALLY INCREDIBLE THINGS WE HAVE ACHIEVED IN JUST ONE YEAR AND VERY, VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES.ND SO, THAT'S WHY WHENEVER I GO ON THE AIR, I HAVE MY SPIEL ABOUT WHAT WE'VE GOTTEN DONE, BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE REALLY DO NEED TO KNOW THAT.

BUT WE ALSO, BONNIE, DO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THINGS ARE HARD.

EVEN AS WE HAVE CREATED ALL THESE AMAZING GAINS FROM A YEAR AGO, WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS.

THE COST -- WHEN I HEAR ABOUT INFLATION FOR MY CONSTITUENTS, WHAT I'M HEARING ABOUT IS THE COST OF HOUSING, THE COST OF CHILDCARE GOING UP, THE INCREDIBLE INCREASES, AND THAT IS WHY, WHATEVER WE WANT TO CALL IT, I DON'T HAVE TO CALL IT BUILD BACK BETTER, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE SAME AS WHAT WE PASSED IN THE HOUSE, BUT WE DO NEED TO TAKE ACTION TO BRING THOSE COSTS DOWN FOR PEOPLE SO THEY WAKE UP FEELING DIFFERENTLY IN THE MORNING ABOUT THEIR LIVELIHOODS AND THEIR OPPORTUNITIES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I JUST HEARD AN ACTIVIST THE OTHER DAY, AND I SUPPOSE COMPLAINING IS THE RIGHT TERM TO USE, ABOUT THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID CAMPAIGN ON GETTING MORE COMPREHENSIVE GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION APPROVED, AND HE HAS NOT DONE THAT.

WELL, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR.

WE -- THERE -- SOME UNEMPLOYMENT REPORTS THAT CAME OUT WERE VERY GOOD FOR THE PRESIDENT.

THEY DID NOT EVEN GET MUCH PUBLICITY BECAUSE OF THE WAR.

I WOULD IMAGINE LOBBYISTS, ACTIVISTS ON CLIMATE CHANGE FEEL THE SAME WAY.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, BONNIE, I WAS AN ACTIVIST FOR 20 YEARS BEFORE COMING TO CONGRESS.

AND MY BELIEF IS THAT ACTIVISTS ACTUALLY KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING THAN WE SOMETIMES GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR.

WHY DO WE HAVE A SYSTEM IN CONGRESS WHERE A MINORITY OF SENATORS CAN BLOCK A BILL FROM EVEN COMING TO THE FLOOR BY A MAJORITY OF SENATORS?

IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME OR TO ACTIVISTS.

IT'S TRUE THAT IS THE REALITY.

IT'S TRUE THAT THE FILIBUSTER EXISTS.

BUT I THINK THAT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THEY LOOK AT US IN CONGRESS AND SAY, WHY CAN'T YOU FIX IT?

AND SO, I THINK I TRY TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE AND SAY IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THEM, POSSIBLE, TO KEEP UP THEIR ACTIVISM AND TO STAY BOLD AND HOPEFUL ABOUT WHAT WE CAN GET DONE AND THAT WE NEED TO HAVE BIGGER MAJORITIES IN ORDER TO EVEN ACCOMPLISH THE CHANGES TO PROCESS AND PROCEDURE THAT WILL ALLOW US TO GET SOME OF THESE THINGS DONE.

BUT I WILL ALSO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DO HAVE MAJORITIES IN THE SENATE, AND THE HOUSE, AND WE HAVE THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING TO SEE THESE URGENT PROBLEMS AND THINGS WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY, LOCAL REPUBLICANS, INDEPENDENTS, AND DEMOCRATS, AGREE GUN VIOLENCE IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE IT ISN'T JUST A DEMOCRATIC ISSUE, IT'S A BIPARTISAN ISSUE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT THEN YOU COME TO CONGRESS AND THE INFLUENCE OF BIG MONEY AND POLITICS AND THE NRA AND THE HOLD THAT THEY HAVE ON REPUBLICANS AND EVEN RECENTLY ON SOME DEMOCRATS IS VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING.

SO I SAY TO ACTIVISTS, LISTEN, NOTHING THAT WAS EVER WORTHY OF FIGHTING FOR AND GETTING IN TERMS OF REAL CHANGE HAPPENED OVERNIGHT.

AND IF IT WERE EASY, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

SO DON'T GIVE UP, JUST HELP US TO KEEP PUSHING.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN IN THE MIDTERMS OF HISTORY IS ANY GUIDE, THE DEMOCRATS ARE PROBABLY GOING TO LOSE BOTH CHAMBERS?

>> Rep. Jayapal: I ABSOLUTELY DON'T THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOSE BOTH CHAMBERS AT ALL.

I ALWAYS LAUGH ABOUT THE FACT THAT APPLICANTS LOSE ELECTIONS AND THEN CLAIM THEY HAVE WON.

DEMOCRATS WIN ELECTIONS AND THEN WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE HAVE LOST BEFORE WE'VE EVEN RUNNING THE ELECTION.

I KNOW THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RUNNING IN SWING DISTRICTS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, AND THEY ARE FANTASTIC CANDIDATES.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW THEIR DISTRICTS KNOW THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

AND I BELIEVE THEY CAN WIN AND I THINK IT'S UP TO US TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO TELL THE COUNTRY ABOUT WHAT GREAT CANDIDATES WE HAVE AND THAT HISTORY DOES NOT HAVE TO BE REPEATED AGAIN.

THAT IS TRUE, THAT IS HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

IT'S TRUE THAT IT'S A TOUGH TIME.

BUT IT REALLY DO BELIEVE WE CAN WIN AND I THINK WE HAVE TO START BELIEVING THAT WE CAN WIN AND NOT ACTING LIKE WE'VE ALREADY LOST.

SO I'M OUT THERE CAMPAIGNING.

I'M GOING TO SWING DISTRICTS.

I AM HOPING TO RAISE MONEY FOR CANDIDATES ON THE FRONT LINES.

AND OF COURSE WE HAVE INCREDIBLE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT ARE RUNNING, THAT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO WELCOMING TO THE HOUSE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU MENTIONED THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH OF COURSE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP USED A LOT, QUITE A BIT, TO OVERTURN LAWS ON THE ENVIRONMENT, I MEAN, YOU NAME IT.

AND WHY DON'T WE SEE PRESIDENT BIDEN USING IT MORE OFTEN?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, ACTUALLY, HE HAS, BUT THIS IS ANOTHER ONE WHERE I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'VE, YOU KNOW, TOUTED THIS AS MUCH.

JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, A $15 MINIMUM WAGE FOR FEDERAL CONTRACTORS, THAT IS GOING INTO EFFECT.

WE HAVE HAD A WHOLE SERIES OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AROUND ANTITRUST, AROUND RACIAL JUSTICE.

AND THE PEOPLE THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BROUGHT IN TO SOME OF THESE AGENCIES, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN USE THE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO BRING DOWN COSTS THAN THEY ALREADY HAVE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS ALSO DONE EXECUTIVE ORDERS AROUND THE LOAN FORGIVENESS, PUBLIC SERVICE LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM WHICH ALLOWS PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO CANCEL THEIR DEBT AND TO GET THEIR DEBT PAID OFF.

AND SO, I THINK THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS IS TAKEN.

WE HAVE PUT TOGETHER A LIST OF A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS, THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, USING MARCHING RIGHTS TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF PHARMACEUTICAL DRUGS.

IF WE CANNOT PASS LEGISLATION, THIS IS A VERY GOOD WAY TO GO ABOUT IT.

CANCELING STUDENT DID, OBVIOUSLY OF MENTIONED.

RAISING THE OVERTIME THRESHOLD WHICH WOULD BENEFIT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF WORKERS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

SO I'M EXCITED ABOUT THOSE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO AS WELL AS OF COURSE LEGISLATION WENT AND I SHOULD MENTION THAT JUST YESTERDAY, WE SIGNED INTO LAW, PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED INTO LAW THE ENDING FORCE ARBITRATION BILL, WHICH WILL END FORCE ARBITRATION IN THE CASE OF ASSAULT AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

AND THEY ARE 60 MILLION PEOPLE WITH EMPLOYMENT CONTRACTS WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THIS, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO SIGNED SERVICE CONTRACTS, LIKE WITH LYFT AND UBER AND OTHER SUCH APPS, WHERE NO LONGER WILL WE MAY BE FORCED INTO FORCE ARBITRATION AND SILENCE.

AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO CHOOSE HOW THEY WANT TO PROCEED ON THEIR CASES, AND THEY WILL HAVE A DAY IN COURT IF THEY WANT IT.

AND I THINK IT'S A REALLY, REALLY BIG DEAL.

IT WILL AFFECT THE LIVES OF MILLIONS OF WOMEN ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU MENTIONED CLIMATE CHANGE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT.

WHAT HAS THE PRESIDENT DONE?

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AND TRULY IS THE MOST PRESSING ISSUE, NOT OF COURSE WHILE RUSSIA IS INVADING THE UKRAINE, BUT OVERALL, OVER TIME, IT IS CERTAINLY THE MOST IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF THE CLIMATE CONTINUES TO DETERIORATE AND THE EARTH CONTINUES TO WARM, THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE ANY OTHER ISSUES.

YOU KNOW, ONCE THE CLIMATE BECOMES UNINHABITABLE.

>> Rep. Jayapal: YES.

AND EVEN THE UKRAINE CRISIS SHOWS US WHAT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR US TO WEAN OURSELVES FROM OIL AND GAS THAT IS, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY MAKES US DEPENDENT ON DICTATORS LIKE PUTIN.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TRANSITION TO RENEWABLE ENERGY AND GET AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS.

TO ME, THIS IS THE CLEAREST EXAMPLE OF WHY WE SHOULDN'T BE HELD HOSTAGE BY A DICTATOR TO THOSE FOSSIL FUELS.

SO WE NEED TO TRANSITION.

TO BE IPCC REPORT JUST CAME OUT ON THE STATE OF THE PLANET.

AND IT IS TERRIFYING.

YOU KNOW, EVEN IN SEATTLE, MY HOME AREA, THEY ARE PREDICTING A SIGNIFICANT RISE IN SEA LEVEL JUST IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DECADES, WHICH REALLY COULD PUT A LOT OF OUR DISTRICT ON THE COASTS UNDERWATER.

AND SO, I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT WE ADDRESS THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

THE PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN A NUMBER OF STEPS, AND WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE SOME, CERTAINLY THE INVESTMENTS OF INFRASTRUCTURE BILL INTO THE EV NETWORK, CHARGING NETWORK MOVING TO ELECTRIFICATION OF THE GRID, THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT.

BUT THE BIGGEST PUSH IS TO BRING DOWN THE CARBON EMISSIONS.

ENTITY THAT, WE NEED TO MAKE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENTS.

THAT IS WHAT THAT HALF A TRILLION THAT WAS IN THE BUILD THAT BETTER ACT WAS DESIGNED TO DO.

SO THERE ARE WAYS THAT ADMINISTRATIVELY THAT WE WILL BE OUTLINING THESE THAT THE PRESIDENT CAN QUICKLY TRY TO BRING DOWN CARBON EMISSIONS.

CERTAINLY, THE TRANSPORTATION SECTOR IN THE WORK THAT WE DO WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE A BILL TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ENCOURAGING MASS TRANSIT AND THINGS LIKE THAT WILL HELP.

BUT THERE'S A LOT MORE THAT HAS TO BE DONE IN THE STANDARD-SETTING ARENA.

AND THAT CAN BE DONE ADMINISTRATIVELY.

AND THEN WE NEED TO REALLY MAKE THIS TRANSITION TO RENEWABLE ENERGY, AND THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE INVESTMENT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO YOU THINK THAT TRANSITION CAN COME IN TIME?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, I THINK WE ARE ALREADY VERY LATE.

BUT I DO THINK THAT WE CAN STILL MAKE A DRAMATIC IMPACT IF WE ACT QUICKLY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DRAMATIC IMPACT, IS THAT GOING TO BE ENOUGH -- I MEAN, I READ SCIENTIFIC REPORT SAYING THAT EVEN IF WE STOPPED ALL CO2 EMISSIONS NOW, CLIMATE CHANGE, WHAT'S BEEN PUT SET IN MOTION ALREADY, WOULD CONTINUE TO MAKE SEA LEVELS RISE, CONTINUE TO INTENSIFY STORMS TO THE POINT WHERE MORE AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WILL DIE BECAUSE OF HURRICANES AND TORNADOES AND WHATEVER ELSE AND MAKE LARGE CHUNKS OF THE GLOBE UNINHABITABLE.

I REMEMBER THE IDEA NATIONS REPORT ON CLIMATE CHANGE ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO CAME UP WITH THE TERM CLIMATE MIGRANTS AND CLIMATE MIGRATION, BECAUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY WERE -- ALONG THE INDIAN OCEAN, LARGE SWATHS OF BANGLADESH AND INDIA HAVE BECOME UNINHABITABLE BECAUSE THEY WERE SHORELINES BEFORE AND NOW THEY ARE UNDERWATER.

AND THAT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE PLANET FOR DIFFERENT REASONS: FIRES, RISING SEA LEVELS, FLOODS, ETC., ETC.

SO DO YOU THINK, DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THIS TIME?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, I THINK THAT WE CAN THROW OUR HANDS UP AND SAY THERE'S NO TIME.

I THINK WE ARE LATE.

AND I THINK THE IMPACT THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING EXACTLY THE REASON WHY WE HAVE TO ACT WITH URGENCY.

AND I THINK WE CAN MAKE A DRAMATIC IMPACT ON REDUCING MIGRATION, CLIMATE MIGRATION, REDUCING DEATHS, REDUCING THE EFFECTS OF THESE DEVASTATING NATURAL DISASTERS THAT WE ARE SEEING ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I JUST THINK THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO ACT.

WE CAN'T SAY IT'S TOO LATE.

THERE IS STILL PLENTY THAT WE CAN SAVEHOSE LIVES TO BE SAVED.

THERE'S HOMES TO BE SAVED.

THERE'S HEALTH TO BE SAVED.

THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS WE CAN STILL DO.

AND I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT TOO LATE IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD EVEN ALLOW OURSELVES TO THINK ABOUT.

WE SHOULD USE IT TO PUSH FOR URGENT ACTION RIGHT NOW.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ONE ISSUE WE HAVE NOT TOUCHED MUCH ON YET IS IMMIGRATION.

THERE ARE STILL, BECAUSE OF THE BANS ON MUSLIM IMMIGRATION THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT IN PLACE, THERE ARE STILL FAMILIES WHO ARE SEPARATED BY THAT WHO HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REUNITE.

THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS, OBVIOUSLY, WITH THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT CHANGING AND WHEN?

>> Rep. Jayapal: WELL, THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE SPENT 20 YEARS ON BEFORE COMING TO CONGRESS, AND SO I'VE BEEN WORKING ON IMMIGRATION JUSTICE FOR A LONG TIME.

AND THE NEED TO REFORM THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM HAS NEVER BEEN MORE CLEAR.

AND I THINK THAT WHILE WE HAVE TAKEN SOME STEPS TO REVERSE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOU KNOW, PUT IN PLACE, COOL, AWFUL THINGS AROUND TEACHING KIDS IN THE MUSLIM BAN, AS YOU MENTIONED, BUT ALSO THE DESTRUCTION OF MANY OF THE AGENCIES, THE CITIZENSHIP AGENCY, MANY OTHER THINGS, WE ARE TAKING SOME STEPS TO CHANGE SOME OF THAT.

BUT IN MY OPINION, WE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH.

AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT WE CAN, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION CAN DO, THEY CAN BAN PRIVATE FOR-PROFIT DETENTION CENTERS.

WE HAVE URGED THEM TO DO THAT.

THERE IS NO REASON THAT JAILING PEOPLE SHOULD BE A FOR-PROFIT ENDEAVOR, WHERE THE PROPHETS DRIVE WHETHER OR NOT SOMEBODY IS INCARCERATED.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN IMMIGRATION DETENTION ARE THERE WAITING FOR A BOND HEARING.

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN -- THEY HAVE NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF CRIME AT ALL.

AND SO, THERE IS A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE.

AND SO, I THINK THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO DETENTION THAT ARE FAR MORE EFFICIENT AND ALSO COST-EFFECTIVE FOR TAXPAYERS.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, BONNIE, AND UNFORTUNATELY THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE THROUGH EXECUTIVE ACTION, IT HAS TO BE DONE THROUGH LEGISLATION: WE NEED TO FIX OUR BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

YOU KNOW, CURRENTLY WE DON'T HAVE A WAY TO ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED IN THIS COUNTRY FOR 20 YEARS, WHO HAVE PICKED VEGETABLES FOR US, PUT FRUITS ON THE TABLE, CLEANED OUR HOTEL ROOMS, YOU KNOW, HAVE DONE SO MUCH CARE WORK FOR US, AND YET THEY ARE STILL HERE IN UNDOCUMENTED STATUS, LIVING IN THE SHADOWS.

THERE IS NO LINE FOR THEM TO GET INTO.

WE ACTUALLY NEED TO REFORM THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

WE NEED TO PROVIDE A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS.

WE NEED TO REDO THE FAMILY IMMIGRATION SYSTEM SO THAT YOU DON'T WAIT 20 YEARS, EVEN, TO GET YOUR CHILD INTO THE COUNTRY WHEN YOU ARE HERE AS A LEGAL RESIDENT.

THERE ARE MANY PIECES THAT WE NEED TO REFORM.

AND IF WE PERFORMED THAT AND WE GAVE PEOPLE PATHWAYS TO ENTRY AND WE WORKED ON THE REASONS, THE ROOT CAUSES OF MIGRATION IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THAT IS HOW WE ARE ULTIMATELY GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

BUT LET'S NEVER FORGET THAT OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE HERE INCLUDING THOSE WITHOUT STATUS WERE TO STOP WORKING, THIS COUNTRY WOULD STOP WORKING.

SO IT IS ON US TO FIX THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM AND TO ACTUALLY PROVIDE A REAL PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP INTO FAMILY UNITY, REUNIFICATION FOR TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT WE TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE EARLIER AND THE FACT THAT IT'S SORT OF A NUMBERS GAME.

AND MEAN, PART OF IT IS GETTING OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS, WHICH ARE TERRIBLE FOR THE CLIMATE, BUT PART OF IT IS ALSO JUST CUTTING BACK USE OF ENERGY GENERALLY, WHICH MEANS IN VERY HIGH CARBON FOOTPRINT COUNTRIES LIKE THE UNITED STATES MEANS HAVING, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST NOT GROWING IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE AND WHO BECOME, WHEN THEY COME FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, BECOME LIKE THE REST OF US, VERY HIGH CARBON FOOTPRINT INDIVIDUALS.

SO DO YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT IMPACT?

>> Rep. Jayapal: THAT IS A -- THAT IS AN OLD AND TIRED ARGUMENT THAT PEOPLE USE TO MAKE ABOUT POPULATION SOMEHOW BEING NEGATIVE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, POPULATION GROWTH, AND THEREFORE IMMIGRATION BEING NEGATIVE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

THAT WAS PUT FORWARD BY A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE CONSERVATIVE FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM.

THEY ACTUALLY TRIED TO MOVE THAT PLATFORM AT THE SIERRA CLUB.

THE WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM IS NOT TO SAY WE DON'T WANT MORE PEOPLE CONSUMING MORE AND LIVING WITH A BIG FOOTPRINT.

THE WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM IS TO SAY WE ARE IN A GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE WELCOMING TO IMMIGRANTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT'S WHAT OUR NATURE IS, IT'S WHAT OUR IDENTITY IS.

AND WE SHOULD CUT OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT.

THE UNITED STATES CARBON FOOTPRINT IS ENORMOUS, YOU'RE RIGHT, COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES.

THERE'S NO REASON IT HAS TO STAY THAT WAY.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE REASON FOR US TO NOT BE A WELCOMING, GENEROUS COUNTRY WHEN IN FACT IT IS IMMIGRANTS WHO HAVE BUILT THE UNITED STATES, ALONG WITH THOSE WHO CAME OVER UNWILLINGLY ON SLAVE SHIPS.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE WORLD AS A COUNTRY, BUT ALSO TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY HERE AND TO THOSE WHO NEED TO COME IN.

BUT THAT -- THE CONNECTION TO CLIMATE AND CARBON FOOTPRINT, THE ANSWER THERE HAS TO BE LET'S CUT OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT, NOT LET'S KEEP PEOPLE OUT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHTY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, CONGRESSWOMAN JAYAPAL.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM.

VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.