Some movement on getting th state budget done by July 1st.

And investigating the deaths at the female prisons with Representative Laure Pohutsky.

She's on a mission to find out what's going wrong in the prisons.

So sitting with us is we get the inside out Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com.

And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Welcome back to Studio C. Budget.

Budget.

Budget.

Let's see what's going on in the speaker's mind.

With Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer out of the country on a trade mission for part of this week and due back later on this week.

House Speaker Matt Hull had the playing field all to himself.

And he says he i prepared to quote 100% in quote, leave the governor out of the budget back and forth.

I'm prepared to walk away completely.

I do see the Senat Democrats is more serious about trying to make a deal right now than the governor's office.

The speaker contends that the governor has ordered her budget director not to negotiate a budget deal while she's out of town.

But a source tells the MIRS newsletter, that's simply not true.

But the speaker is alleging th governor is, well, doing this.

And so what I see from the governor's office is all kinds of attempt to spin and confuse the media.

And the speaker did report that she and the governor did have a conversation last night, but not on the budget, but on property tax relief.

Meanwhile, the state's education lobby and local governments are turning up the heat on the speaker and others to finish this jo before that July 1st deadline.

As the speaker ponders taking a hike, the speaker also wonders.

I have a good relationship with the governor.

I'm not sure what's going on over there, but yeah, I'm prepared to walk away 100% from the governor an make a deal with Winnie Brinks.

We'll make a deal with Winnie Brinks and Sarah Anthony.

And we'll, we'l get a budget done by July 1st.

The governor's office was contacted this afternoon for a response.

So far, none.

As for the speaker.

Please note that quote, preparing to walk out and actually walking out ar two distinct, different things.

And the betting money is when the governor gets back in town and she invites him into her office, he will walk in and not walk out.

Oh goodness gracious.

What's going on here?

Is this just the dance?

Honestly?

Yeah.

I mean, does anyone know what's really going on here?

It feels like within the last mont or so, we've gone from everybody issuing statements of geniality like, oh, we, we're probably going to get the budget done by this time.

I mean, it's a campaign year.

People are itching to get out on the road, get in front of voters.

So all of a sudde have this roadblock thrown up.

That' who knows what's going on here.

But also, I just want to point to the fact of him saying he's going to walk away from the governor, the person who's supposed to sign this budget.

That's just not at all realistic.

He could be talking to Winnie Brinks.

He didn't say hes going to walk away.

No, I know.

Im pairing to walk away which means he had his shoes on.

Right.

And, you know, a couple a couple days ago, he had, he had some statement that he was floating the ide of a four month stopgap spending bill, continuing resolution.

Maybe I'll negotiate it with the new governor.

I mean, issuing statements like that, causing an external panic over this level about like, what?

What is the point here?

What is the ultimate end goal here?

Because Whitmer's going to come back from that trip abroad and he is going to have to negotiate with her.

So what is the reason of doin all of this in public right now?

It's absolutely fascinating t go from, Matt Hall now used to, you know, say that it was just going to be Matt Hall and the governor, that those were the only two that needed to do the budget.

And this was last year I'm talking about.

Right.

But it was going to b the Matt Hall Governor Whitmer, you know, road show and figure it out.

And now it's going to be Matt Hall.

And Winnie Brinks and Sarah Anthony, I mean, if you think you understand what's going on with the budget right now, you don't understan what's going on with the budget.

Well we do understand.

You're right.

We don't understand is the story.

Touche.

Touche.

I mean, look, there's one person in the 148 member legislatur who thinks a gigantic property tax cut should be tied to the budget, that the budget can only pass with it.

And it's Matt Hall.

The what nobody knows is what is his end number goal.

You know, the House has passe $5 billion in property tax cuts.

I think probably all of us have been on the show at some point during this year and said, that's not going to happen.

I think Matt Hall knows that's not going to happen.

This week, Governor Whitmer, for the first time told him that's not going to happen.

And I think that's what kind of set him off.

On criticizing the governor.

But the question for Hall, you know, Hall likes to cast himself as a big deal maker.

And the question is, what's the number he he wants the governor put out, like $9 million in property tax relief.

The Senate Democrats have a number that's about $300 million.

Matt Hall's is somewhere between $300 million and $5 billion, though that is a huge range that nobody really knows.

And that's the only thing that's holding up the budget right now.

What was this memo?

This, this tweet or whatever was last night at 8:42 that says basically they're in the room and they're negotiating and we've got a. Theres a glimmer of hope now that the budget for July and by July 1st.

Yeah.

Oh, was that true?

It was misleading?

Why was that issued?

I mean, you look at any statement that Hall has made regarding this budget again in the last couple weeks.

I'm preparing to walk away.

There's a glimmer of hope.

None of these are definitive statements.

None of these are things that say we have people in the room we have people that are talking, and we have people who are agreeing on things.

And until that actually happens, I mean, if I'm a school district, if I am somebody who is really hinging their bets on, hedging their bets excuse me, on that July 1st deadline, I would be nervous right now.

I mean, the hope is that obviously they pass it, maybe even just the schools budget by July 1st.

I have no indication if that is the case.

I do want to be clear, but you know, I would be preparing.

They've passed this precedent.

We've seen this legislature blow this deadline before.

Well, what about the governor's the criticism of the governor from the speaker that she should have been here rather than across the street or the pond, doing something?

That's a bipartisan point of criticism.

You know, we talked to a lot of Democratic members of the legislature this week.

Some of them weren't happy that she was gone.

It's like lock in, governor.

Like, yes.

You know, we understand you can zoom from Europe.

You can get on the phone and all of this.

But the reality is, when you really want to get this done, everybody's got to get in the room and lock the doors and finalize this.

And that's hard to do when you're on an international trade mission across the pond.

Other Democrats did say this is no big deal.

It's much ado about nothing.

But there was an undercurrent in Lansing this week.

How can the governor not be here?

And it was not just Matt Hall saying it.

I think there's that undercurrent overall among some to abou where is the governor in general right now?

Well, there are some in this town who believe she has, quote, checked out for the year.

Now, I will say I mean, part of where she went this week was a conference in France.

I mean, that was scheduled well ahead of time.

It wasn't like, you know, I mean, these are things that you're planning.

So was the budget year.

That is true.

That is very true.

Yes, yes.

July 1st is, is always going to be there.

But I mean, as your piece noted, you know, Jen Flood, the budget director, what they're saying is that she had full ability to negotiate on behalf of the governor while the governor was away, and the governor is coming back.

I mean, and then there's also the overarching issue of internal problems with the House Republican caucus.

I mean, whether or not we're going to have people who even want to show up, and vote on this budget, I, you know, there' there's been a story this week in Lansin that some internal comments made about lawmakers by other lawmakers.

It's just kind of been, a bit chaotic in the legislature this week to to say it lightly.

So, again, I mean, you know, we talk about these feelings that are overarching, you know, the governor's not here.

There's a level of frustration about this budget.

People are now infighting.

Again, all signs point to a July 1st deadline being met as getting slimmer.

I just don't know what.

Like what does Matt Hall mean by a glimmer of hope?

I mean, everything we've been told is Representative Bolin, appropriations chai in the House, Senator Anthony, appropriations chair in the Senate have been building a budget at the big unknown that's been looming out there is the speaker's insistence on some type of massive property tax relief.

But no one really knows what is his minimum that he needs to get a budget done.

And so what is a glimmer of hope?

I mean, like, okay, people now understand what my must have i I don't know what it it's like.

No, everything the budget itself is totally non-controversial.

There is no issue within the budget proper that should cause them to go beyond July.

Do we put money in the rainy day fund or not?

I mean, if it's if it's as bad as that were looking good.

So 10 millio people in the state just yawned.

They're all watching this show.

Exactly right now.

And unfortunately they arent.

I mean why downt lawmakers want to be back in district knocking on doors?

I mean, that's the thing.

We're in an election year.

You know?

Optics, optics.

The good news is the publi is not paying attention to this, except if you were a school superintendent.

And I heard that the Supe have now gone to sending letters to folks at home.

Yeah.

Oh who by the way, vote.

Yes.

I was at an event Wednesday and, talking exactly about this, and a woman held up her phone with a letter from her superintendent to the families saying, here's what's going on.

That should move something.

Well I mean it's just little bit of a dangerous dance.

I mean, you continue to push this budget off.

It's been another year that we're, shouldn't even say it's been another year.

It could potentially be another year in which we blow past this July 1st deadline.

You're running into campaign season.

He's talking about oh, well, maybe we'll negotiate this with a new governor.

I mean, what like, is we have to bring a level of seriousness to this conversation, and we really don't know what's happening right now.

A continuation budget that we were we were lost.

We jumped the shark a continuation budget.

All right.

Let's let's talk data centers.

The CRC Citizen Research Council kind of threw some water on some of the fears over this stuff this week.

What's what's going on there?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's well, first of all, what's going on with data center is they're hugely controversial, especially these hyperscaled huge data centers.

Right.

The ones that people are just picketing about and do not want to see in their backyards.

And what CRC came out and said that, you know, each of these data centers needs to be looke at separately as an individual basis, basically, and that they can't all be gone together in one giant bucket.

And basically what they said is there's going to be some noise pollution.

Yeah.

Then it could affect global warming.

The temperature should go up.

But the other stuff about, you know, the sky is falling.

We're not going to have electricity.

The they said the grid is the home grid.

And then there's this grid.

So and the Senate checked in this week?

Right.

Exactly.

And so actually on on Thursday, they introduced a multi bill package that dealt with regulation surrounding hyperscale data centers.

It limited the amount o electricity that they could use.

It required, for instance, that if they're being built they have to use prevailing wages.

They have to use union workers.

There's all sorts of stipulations.

Benefits for local governments.

Right.

Well, what's funny though, is what the package did not addres was the noise pollution aspect.

It also did not issue any kind of a moratoriu on the concept of data centers, which I know has been a really common or or an idea that's got some consensus behind it.

I think it was, Republican Senator Jim Runestead that had introduced a bill to put a moratorium on data center buildings in Michigan.

Governor doesnt want that.

Right.

Exactly.

And actually, at the press conference, the Democratic senator said, you know, if a city, if a township, if a locality says that we need to pump the brakes on a data center, and we want six months to figure out if this is right for us, then that should be a case by case basis, but that these regulation should more or less be statewide so that there is at least a level playing field of environmental worker protection, ratepayer protections and so on.

Then out of the woodwork come the governor basically saying, you know, these regulations sound really good.

I mean, the governor has really gone ou on a limb on the data centers.

And you know what?

Like, hey, look, this is what elected officials are paid to do, is you earn political capital and then you spend it.

And the governor's decided this is the issue.

I'm going to put my popularity rating to the test on.

And she's saying this is the future for Michigan.

And we need to be at the front of the parade.

And she's getting lambasted by a wide cross-section of people, irrespective of ideology, political views, geography.

We don't really know what that's going to look like for her going forward.

But we can see maybe the governor's trying to find some type of a landing zone because her her messaging to try to calm the nerves has failed so far.

I don't know what's going to calm the nerves of folks who are anti data centers at this point, right?

I mean, certainly not this report.

This is so, intrinsically part of people and their communities.

And you can see that in the protests and exactly what's happening.

Well, and I will acknowledge, too that the fear that data centers are going to come into a community.

I mean, we look at Selene Township an I'm basically paraphrasing here, but the township said that we don't want it.

And the data center company said, we have more money than you, and we can sue you until basically you run out of funding.

More to follow.

Due too, you know, exclusionary zoning rules.

And now they're moving into to Selene Township.

So, I mean, do we need to regulate some level of, you know, how data centers can ac and interact with communities?

I would say that the communities where these centers are moving into would probably say us.

All right, let's call in our guests and talk about what's going on in the female prison down in Ypsi.

Representative, welcome to Off the Record of an opening question with the recent three female deaths since May 17th, what has been the governor's an the administration's response?

The governor has been, largely silent and deferred to the director, the governor did, however, order the director to be on site after the first two deaths.

I will say that I personally find it a little concerning that someone had to be directed to go to the prison when there were two deaths in a matter of days.

But that was largely the governor's involvement.

The director has been on site.

There has been another death since she has been on site.

She has been more responsive to my outreach personally.

But there does seem to be a lot of treatment of these issues as though they are isolated incidents.

Rather than acknowledgin that there is a broader pattern.

Has the director told you what?

Happened or what?

No.

What did you promise you?

Oh, she's promised me nothing.

And that's that's fine.

I'm not asking for promises.

I am asking for, you know, transparency, honesty, coming to the table, some acknowledgment that there are problems, that need solutions.

And that has not necessarily happened.

While you were doing that, you also signed a letter asking the governor to kick her out?

No, I asked Heidi Washington to resign herself.

She's not done that.

I don't think that she plans to do that.

I think that there are a number of issues, and not all of them are going to be solved by a leadership change, but I don't think that any of the necessary changes are going to occur under Director Washington's leadership.

What is the core issue in your mind that that is causing the Women's Huron Valley Prison to be such a but it appears to be a nightmare situation?

Multiple deaths, lots of other issues?

I think it's important to not that the issues at Women's Huron Valley are not, usually unique to that prison.

These are issues that are across the board in all of our facilities.

But the biggest issues that we are finding are conditions of confinement and lack of access to health care.

Why do you think that th governor, she has been resolute in defending Heidi Washington as the director, who is a holdove from the Snyder administration?

She's been director for 1 years, has a lot of experience.

He's been a warden.

She used to do corrections policy in the legislature.

There have been a tremendous amount of criticism.

The corrections officers want her gone.

A big chunk of the legislature wants her gone.

But the governor is resolute behind her.

Why do you think that is And what do you think of that?

I couldn't really speculate.

The governor has not had any conversations with me about Director Washington, so I don't know what her perspective is.

But as I said I think it's a little troubling that someone had to be directed to go to a facility under their management after there were two deaths back to back.

And seemingly nothing has really improved because another person died at the end of tha first week that she was there.

Besdides the resignation, what would you like to see happen?

There doesn' need to be a complete overhaul of the health care system within these facilities.

The department vigorously disagrees with this, but I have heard time and time again from both corrections officer and incarcerated people alike, that they often cannot see a doctor unless they see a nurse three times ahead of time.

That also requires them paying a $5 co-pay for each of those visits, many of which those folks just do not have that money.

And often once they make it in front of a health care professional, their concerns are dismissed.

So I think that revamping tha and making sure that, you know, there's all this talk about community standards of care and how everyone who wa incarcerated is receiving that.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

And thus far, the department has been unwilling to acknowledge that what they are saying and what the people who are subject to these conditions, are saying is not matching up.

So what legislatively, what kind of powers do you have to address that?

If it doesn't seem that Heidi Washington is going to willingly resign, it doesn't seem that Governor Whitmer is going to force her out.

I mean, what what kind of conversations are going on?

The department is hosting, briefings that occur once o twice a week and giving updates.

But again, the frustration that I keep running into is, you know, Monday night I spent over five hours in Women's Huron Valley and virtually everything that was raised by those women, the department insists is not happening.

So the legislature has the ability to come in and implement policy and say, this is what's going to happen in these facilities.

I will be the first one to acknowledge, I'm sure the department would lov to, you know, corroborate this.

I'm not a prison administrator.

None of us within that legislature are.

It would be much more beneficial to make sure that anything we implement can practically be implemente is not going to have negative, unintended consequences.

That's extremely hard to do when we don't have willing partners at the table in the director or the governor.

But so go ahead.

I was going to say, bu so I guess, is that the answer then the prisoners are just going to continue to, to languish while everybody who has the power to do stuff just says, well, we're not talking?

One of the things that we've been doing is we've been collectin and logging all of the outreach that we get, either fro the people who are incarcerated or from their loved ones, from advocates, and sending just lists every single week of those issues.

And they are apparently getting dealt with on an individual basis, but that's not sustainable.

That leaves out anyone who doesn't think to write to a random representative that is not their own.

It's just it's not the way that this needs to be going.

But what I will say is that the fact that these issues get dealt with to me indicates there are, in fact, issues.

So I don't want to say that people are just languishing, but this is not a real solution.

This is a Band-Aid that is not sustainable.

What did you make of the mold report?

The mold report to me, is another symptom of this broader problem of the department treating everything like it's a PR crisis.

I said in that oversigh hearing, there is mold present.

The mold that was cultured out of, an incarcerated woman's ears and lungs is not toxic.

But it can impact people who have underlying health conditions, which this woman does.

A number of the women inside report.

But that mold is not inherently toxic.

That doesn't mean it's acceptable that it is growing in someone's lungs and ears.

It doesn't make it acceptable.

It's growing.

Period.

And it's not just in Women's Huron Valley.

It's in all of the facilities.

So to point to that and say, well, it's not toxic.

No, it's okay, that's not the problem.

And that just demonstrates to me, again that the department is treating all of these issues more like PR crises to be managed than an actual, issue with a confinement of these people.

To what extent is the proble the private provider of health care in the prisons, tha the department has changed this?

It feels like 8000 times in the last ten years.

I'm exaggerating, obviously but they did recently basically kick out the company within the last three years that was doing health care in the prisons, replace them.

They've consolidated it now.

So that pharmacy, mental health an physical health is all together.

It's just it's changed a number of ways.

It's obviously not an easy thing to provide health care to, what, 30,000 some people.

But how much is that the problem?

I think it's a large chunk of the problem.

What I have also heard, and I'm working on trying to to break this apart, is that a lot of the times when the company changes, it's actually a company declaring bankruptcy, and then very little actually changes about the people who are providing that health care.

But at the root of it, a for profit health care system is a problem for all of us, doubly so when it's people who are incarcerated who, frankly, are sort of forgotten and cast aside by society.

So I think that that's a really big part of the problem at hand.

Should oversight call in the director?

I absolutely think they should.

I've spoken about it with the chair.

Yes.

What does Mr.

Hall say?

I haven't spoken about, about it with the speaker, but the chair seems to be on board with it, and he's obviously a conduit to the speaker.

So will that happen?

I can't make a promise about what a committee that I don't have jurisdiction over.

How is it that you got at the forefront of this?

There was, a friend of mine who is working on a lawsuit around, strip searches and Women's Huron Valley being video recorded.

A lot of those stri searches are extremely invasive.

Sometimes they are retaliatory in nature.

And they were being recorde via body cam, and it was raised to my attention.

I reached out to the director, I reached out to the legislative liaison and reached out to the governor's team.

No one seemed willing to engage.

I asked that this be resolved before it turned into litigation, and that did not happen.

And my emails were include as part of the evidence to that, lawsuit.

And I think that a lot of the people who were impacted by that lawsuit, realize that someone though it was unacceptable and cared, and I ended up in mor regular communication with them.

Who need to hear more about this, right?

Like you're bringing all of this up, you're telling these stories, and yet it still feels like these sort of isolated incidents.

Who needs to hear your message?

I mean, all of the constituents of mine that have read about this and have seen it on TV have been horrified.

So I think that the general public, once it's brought to their attention, is pretty concerned with this being done with their tax dollars in the name of the state.

This is not how they want things to operate.

It does seem like the governor, though, needs to take, a little bit more control and maybe visit the site herself.

Talk to some of these people one on one, touring the site based on what the department wants to see, wants to be seen is not sufficient.

Actually, talking to the people about the conditions that are living in.

I think it's really critical.

I want to ask about sort of following up on that.

The governo and the administration overall, just to discuss the Departmen of Corrections in great detail.

There was an oversight hearing this week that really portrayed the tax operation in the Department of Treasury as a total disaster.

This year, the troopers and command officers in the Department of State Police want the director of that department gone.

There was a survey of DNR employees that basically said, th director of that department is a is a ghost.

It is there something connecting all of this?

What is your sense of the governor's overall management of the admini You know, I would not want to oversee al of these departments in a really highly detailed level.

That's not my skill set.

So I'm not trying to, you know, attack anyone who is.

It's very, very difficult.

But I will say that a similar vein throughout all of this is an unwillingness to see anything as other than just criticism.

A lot of us are, you know the legislature also has a role in making sure that these departments have the proper oversight and are functioning properly and doing what they need to do for the people of the state.

So it's not necessarily criticism.

It's us doing our job and looking for willing partners to try and better some of these issues.

So with the last deat at Women's Huron Valley prison, Governor Whitmer issued verbatim the exact same statemen as when the second woman died.

What does that say to you about where she's at on this?

I don't think that she's taking it nearly seriously enough.

I have sat down with some of these families.

I have sat down with the women who were begging for healthcare assistance, for the three women who died.

It is heartbreaking, and it is insulting to have a copy and pasted statement go out about a third death that went out about the first two.

Would you feel more comfortable or at ease if the governor had said, I will personally look into this and clean up this mess?

I think that that woul have been a good starting point.

But what comes after is going to be very important and a statement is a starting point, but it's by no means a solution.

So where does this end?

Hopefull with people coming to the table and taking these issues seriously and listening to the people living in these conditions.

Representative thanks for joining us on the program.

Thank you.

Always good to see you.

You as well.

Good to see you guys as well.

Everybody have a nice weekend.

More Off the Record right here next week.

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