Everybody with Angela Williamson is made possible by Fire Heart Entertainment and viewers like you.

Thank you.

Our filmmakers aren't just telling stories.

They're igniting conversations.

They're using their craft to raise awareness about learning disabilities and elder care, challenge our perspectives and inspire us to become agents of change.

They believe that film can be a catalyst for progress.

And tonight, we're celebrating their vision and their dedication.

I'm so happy you're joining us.

And then you from Los Angeles.

This is KLCS PBS.

Welcome to everybody with Angela Williamson.

An Innovation, Arts, education and public affairs program.

Everybody, with Angela Williamson is made possible by viewers like you.

Thank you.

And now your host, doctor Angela Williamson.

Fiona Linka Dian is our first guest.

Fiona, I am so happy to have you here.

Thank you so much for having me.

I've been trying to get you on since season one because not only are you a filmmaker, but you are an educator in the LA USD.

I am, I know.

So is that the reason why you wanted to create this movie?

This is your first animated.

I did, and it really affects me.

It's a very it's one of the best jobs I've ever had, but one of the hardest jobs.

I've been going at it for 27 years, and I adore my students.

And it takes a lot of energy.

You go home and you're laying on the ground.

Because you work, and special education is important for you.

And it's Gavin's adventures, right?

Is and this is a young child who's, from a very mixed background and Asian background, and his father is black, but he's in credibly white for some reason.

And he's got red hair, he's got freckles, and he never, ever has a fair time at school because he goes to so many different schools because his father was in the military.

Now his father has passed, and now he's at the school.

He's trying to to fit in, and he meets the bullies, he meets people, and he all of a sudden befriends somebody who taps at his window and he's really into, martial arts and all that type of stuff.

And it's a praying mantis.

And the praying mantis speaks to him.

He goes, oh, wait, oh, God, I can't go through this again.

You.

No, no, no, you're not really speaking to me.

Now, we as audience members don't know if he's really speaking to him, but he just needs a BF big time.

And and so that's it.

And it just gives him encouragement and it the kids I do everything G-rated.

Yes.

And, as an educator I, I don't mind anybody who does any other type of rated films but me personally.

I love all my kids to watch things like this.

Well, and is that why you came up with this concept?

Because I know you were working on this film for almost three years for four years?

I mean, is it your interaction with your students is how you create it?

Gavin.

It is, and my interaction with my students.

It's so funny.

The other day I was teaching in front of kids and somebody said something.

They all went, oh!

And I go, oh my goodness.

That's throughout my whole film.

When the kids make this thing, they always go, oh, oh, oh, and they always want to do the right thing.

They really do.

I mean, you have kids from A to Z, but you can always steer a kid on the right path if they're a little bit going off the path.

I think it's teaching is an incredible job where I really think that you pave your way to go to heaven, follow whatever you want to call it.

But the fact of the matter is, it's so important to have good teachers out there and I am meeting great teachers in this writing cadre to do downtown as well.

And I meet, you know, like 36 teachers that I'm in a group with.

And it's incredible what they go through.

We all learn from each other, but it's always about the kid any time.

It's not about us personally, it can never be about us.

And these educators that you are meeting with, are they all educators from the Los Angeles?

We are and they are incredible.

They're from all areas of Los Angeles, and we all meet once a month with this writing contract, and we're going to do a fair downtown, and we're going to put up what we've learned in our classrooms and talk about reading and, a writing, writing and teaching children the writing process and how to go through it.

And yeah, sure, it's like pulling teeth sometimes, but you get there, and that's what it's all about.

Well, and what I'm hearing from you, it's not only about, you know, bringing the your audience, the, the viewers attention about what it means to teach in special education.

But then what you're also telling me here is the importance of educators coming together and supporting each other as you all try to do your craft.

Exactly.

It is.

And, you know, that's amazing that LAUSD, I mean, you can hear all these negative things that people say about LAUSD, but the one thing I want to tell you is when you've got teachers out there, every job has a good, bad and the ugly.

But I've always seen the real good side of people when it comes involving children.

And I've never, ever, in my writing cadre, ever been introduced to anybody who just didn't care because we meet on Saturday.

So, you know, we care.

in this movie, Gavin's adventures, we talk about how to teach people to be nice, how to teach people to accept everybody.

And I love all the little kids I have in there, because it was so great to cast this, because I took everybody that I had met on the film circuit.

And these are very professional actors, and they had their own in-home studios.

So when the pandemic was going on, I really couldn't get out there on a set.

So I thought, hey, why not do animation?

But boy, man, it is incredible.

It is.

I did all the drawings.

I love to draw.

I did it through the Adobe system and, I had all these great people from everywhere that I had just met that just didn't voices and things like that.

And it was wonderful.

And it was really neat because I had this one young, actor.

I had many different, many different ages, everything but this one.

And young actor, about two years before that, had asked me why I was doing an audition for a movie for Covert Activity, and she said, you know, you're directing this.

Do you think I can audition for this?

And I said, you know, I'm going to let you audition and I think that's great that you came up to me.

I'm not sure I have a part for you, but I'm going to keep you in line for something.

And I cast her as a teacher because she is a teacher, and it was wonderful.

But what I really love about doing animation is, is that, you know, if you cast somebody that's, from, a Japanese descent, and then I'm going to cast a Japanese actor.

If you cast somebody who's African American, you're going to cast somebody who's African American.

There's not an option in animation.

You do that.

Yeah.

You do.

I think it's so important.

I really do, I really do because, it's just that gut feeling.

And when the actor or actress sees what I drew them, they they love that because it's, it's it's not getting rid of their personality.

That's part of what you have written.

But what's so neat about doing it is you actually what you were thinking the day you picked up that script to just write your little notes and your pre-writing.

Yeah, the writing process, everything that you were thinking of, you can put that through your movie.

And since I edit and do all that, I can.

Fit into that.

And I'm hearing a lot of things here based on this conversation, I'm hearing the importance of, you know, for independent filmmakers to be able to have, you know, creative control over the entire process so that you make sure that the story you want to tell, the big idea comes out the way you envision.

But then I'm also saying to you is that in Gavin's adventures, it looks like you've chosen so many different cultures to be represented.

Yeah, and that's what we see in LAUSD.

We see multiple different cultures represented.

So you really are taking what you do every day and putting that to film.

Yeah.

How do you feel doing that?

I love it and I love it because it represents my students and it it represents what I see.

And even though I think that all my children are equal to me, each child has their culture that they bring with them to my classroom.

And that's what I think is beautiful about the whole thing.

That's why I think it's so important to touch base is on each of these things, because that's what they identify with, what they know, what they are used to is how you get through it all.

And I think that's great.

Wow.

You've used your background as an educator working in special education to create Gavin's adventures.

And we already talked about the big idea, in your opinion, because you are on the film festival circuit.

In your opinion, what would be the overall goal that you would love to see this film?

Do we not just go into theaters, but do you want something more?

Well, you know, it was interesting.

My principal came back to me.

She goes, I would love to show this to all the kids.

And I said, I would love to do that.

I have to digital process it to their screening because I get very particular about the colors.

And I want my colors in there.

I want like the little girl's outfits and everything, you know?

And sometimes when I look back at I said, boy, how did I have time to actually make these characters move?

Make them, you know, say somethi it's a blessing having actors that just are so into their parts.

I mean, it's just incredible.

But it also sounds like you have actors who not only knew their craft, but they supported the vision you.

Had for they did.

And you know what?

That's incredible too.

So I love that type of thing.

I went through Screen Actors Guild and things like that because I love to follow the rules.

One thing about being a teacher, you follow the rules.

You're very transparent.

Yeah, that's how you keep it.

And I love that type of thing.

But the fact of the matter is for actors to just give it their all, and anybody that can put themselves on that big screen and say something.

There, it's just incredible.

I know it really is.

All because they add life to the characters you create created in your head.

But then when you're creating something that you want to make a difference and leave an impact, I think that gives you even a more increased gratification, right?

It does.

And, you know, I it's just everything.

I think the best parts of movies that I've ever watched, especially British movies, it's a slice of life, but I just want it to have a beginning, middle and an end.

And I love happy endings, you know?

And I think that this is wonderful, that, you know, I, he actually speaks a little bit of Chinese because he's really into doing this.

He's into the praying mantis movements, which is a real movement of martial arts.

And it's the praying mantis concept, and of course, a bullion.

It gets a praying mantis flying on his and faith on.

His being.

The outlook that he's going to be.

And all the kids are saying, well, see, that's what you deserve.

You can't do that to people.

You can't be mean.

You know.

Learning the tenets of being nice and how important that.

Is.

It completely.

Nice.

Well, I can't believe our time is almost done, and I'm sure our audiences, they've enjoyed seeing bits and pieces of Gavin that we're showing them as we're talking.

But they will they will want to see the entire movie.

So how can they find Gavin?

It Gavin's bitches right now?

Well, at this point I'm getting ready for my next film festival and I'm not sure what it is at this point, but we just picked up some really great awards from festivals that we were doing and things like that.

We actually have a British award too, and we have that from Shin Play, and I just thought that that was nice.

But they love the script and I think it goes back down to the writing process.

You got to have that beginning.

You come in with the setting and you know, Gavin's in his bed snoring and you see this little thing hopping around, you know, and it's I just loved it.

It was a joy doing it well.

And I'm so proud to see the finished product.

I just remember when you were starting this, how can our audience keep in touch with you on social media?

Where can they find you?

Well, you can go to our productions.com and I think there's lots of others, but that's the childhood name that I used to have when I used to work for The Waves and Roar, because we came from a British background.

My father was from India and my mother's from Ireland, and they somehow ended up in London together.

And the fact of the matter is, they immigrated out here.

So we're immigrants.

But the fact of the matter was, is that, I would love the beach.

And we didn't fit in at school for some reason.

We just didn't fit in.

And there were six of us.

So I, we took to surfing and being at the beach, and that was we thought it was everything, you know, to have the sun, to have everything going on.

So ripping and roaring through the waves.

And that was it.

Now you won't catch me out there now because I didn't know those things nipping on our feet were sharks.

But you have a great memory.

And now I have the background of why you call your production company that.

Yeah, I love it, I love it.

Well, Fiona, I am again.

So proud of you.

And thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about your animated film, Gavin's adventures, and I know our audience will enjoy seeing it.

So thank you.

Also, thank you so much for having me.

Thank you.

And come back to meet our second filmmaker, Susie Singer Carter.

So what do I do with.

Just look at some.

Welcome back.

Season three guest.

Susie.

Susie, thank you so much for coming back.

Oh, it's my pleasure to be back here with you because you all in.

You're welcome.

Because when we talked in season three, you were in production for this empowering and also impactful document tree.

No Country for Old People.

But I've been watching you and you've made so much progress with it.

And that's why I knew it was important for you to come back, along with Fiona, because you both are creating art while being advocates at the same time.

So I want you to catch us up to what is going on with this incredible documentary.

Thank you.

And it's so true.

Art and advocacy are such a great, great combination because that's the power to it's the way to educate people because No Country for Old People is about really exposing the crisis that we have in long term care and the nursing home system, which is a broken system and has been for over 50 years.

The problem is nobody knows about it until you're in the throes of it, and then it's too late because you're playing whac-a-mole like so.

This happened to me with my mom 3 or 3 years ago this July, and the last six months of her life was a nightmare.

And she was at a five star facility here in Los Angeles.

And we I could not get care for her.

And more than that, she was being she was being tortured.

She was suffering so bad.

And people just kept gaslighting me going, she's okay.

This is normal.

This is her age.

This is Alzheimer's.

You're stressed out.

And I was like, this isn't feeling right.

Nobody should be treated like this.

This is wrong.

And that's what they're doing.

And, you know, the sad thing is that they're we are basically warehousing our most vulnerable.

And it's not just the elderly, it's there's a lot of people in long term care who have disability.

Right.

So you have people in your 20s, 30s, 40s who are confined to long term care, and they are not treated any better.

Why is there such a huge issue with long term care?

Is it because we are not catching up with the times?

Or is it, I mean, is it more of the policy behind it?

I mean, why is there such a disconnect there?

It's greed is a lot of money and and it's that that sector of our population is easy to dismiss.

So when there's no eyes on the situation, this situation stays status quo.

So you have a lot of investors who have come in and taken over the long term care industry.

And because there is constant flow of money from Medicare and Medicaid.

So it becomes like a big business.

It's a big business.

It's a big business, and it's not and it's a corrupt business.

So there's a whole business model, which we explain in the documentary, which basically is, you know, you've got these people that come in, these corporate corporations and, you know, real estate equity investors ready to come in and see this as a great flow of cash.

Right.

Follow the money and they build it up like like it is criminal enterprise.

So you have different related parties.

So they will buy these chains of nursing homes, long term care facilities.

They will own the management company.

They will own the the vendors.

They will own the nursing, you know, company they're going to own as much as they can.

Jack up their prices, pay themselves a lot, and then be shielded by their corporate veil.

So most of the time, we don't even know who is the true owner and what they do.

What do you think is the most expensive part of any business?

Are your employees?

Yes.

You've heard about understaffing.

You have to have heard that that is a big key.

During a pandemic.

We heard about.

That about that.

Right.

And that's not new understaffing.

The reason why was such a crisis in in during during the pandemic was because we are chronically understaffed.

Why are we chronically understaffed?

Because that's how they make money, and they're never going to staff at the way it's supposed to.

They're going to fight it tooth and nail.

And the problem, the other problem is that the nursing home industry has a lobby, and that lobby is very strong, and that lobby makes sure to keep the system status quo.

Okay.

So what I hear you're saying is, first of all, is that when we look into this as a business, you're looking at one company owning several different entities of a business, but isn't that a monopoly?

I mean, I'm not an economic person.

Well, I have to bring someone, but to me that's a monopoly, because to the point of where you can make those decisions, making sure you don't have enough personnel also to because of their lobbying, there's no legislation to say that you need to have five personnel per two patients.

Right.

But and even if they do, you know, there's we have we have the center of a center for Medicare and Medicaid, right?

Yes.

CMS okay.

You're supposed to be the oversight.

They're supposed to be the regulators.

Right.

So even if a bill is passed, let's say in in California, there is a minimum staffing law.

However, who's there to enforce it?

Nobody.

Who's there to do the oversight?

Not many there are.

You know, we have you have surveyors, you have, ombudsman who will come in there.

They're generally, they're not paid.

They're volunteer.

But they'll come in and they're going to do a very cursory kind of overview.

So just like a glance at it.

Yeah, it's very performative.

And then if there is a very if there's someone that goes in and actually identifies an issue, they may get, you know, a penalty, which is nothing more than a slap on the hand and the cost of doing business.

So it's really nominal to them as the business owners, if you try to let's say you, you have, a negligent case of negligence and you want to go to court and sue on the behalf of your loved one, that, oh, those owners are so protected and, and and their identity is protected through the corporate fails.

So you really don't know who you're up against.

And that has been that's been one of the fights is to have transparency.

There's no transparency.

So when you are suing, say, one nursing home for neglect and abuse to your loved one, it's generally them following orders.

No, we can't do that test because it's too expensive.

Well, my mom doesn't need that test, but she does need that test because they get more payback for it.

It's it's it's all based on money and it's all motivated.

Oh, you know, for the most part.

And and when you think about who are, who are the front line workers, you guys are CNAs.

You, you know, you're certified nursing assistants.

You've got your registered nurses and your doctors.

There is much like a victim, as our loved ones because they this isn't what they signed up for.

And they're in it also too, when you're understaffed, the staff that's there, they're doing more and more.

So they can't keep up.

That's when I talked to you in season three.

You were in pre-production.

Yeah.

And a lot of pre-production.

So our audience will know when it comes to documentaries is a lot of research.

And as you started to research and find these numbers and find people to talk to you, was it easy or was it hard?

Because now we're looking at something that now we've turned big business, millions, billions of dollars.

There.

People sometimes get afraid to talk.

Oh for sure, for sure.

There's retaliation all the time.

My my partner, who I need to mention one of my partners is Rick Mountcastle, who is a form of former federal prosecutor and, district in general.

I'm sorry, assistant general, attorney general and, West Virginia.

And he was also the subject of the Hulu miniseries and Dopesick he's played by Peter Sarsgaard.

Oh.

So, Rick really knew how to, you know, really was is an is a powerhouse when it comes to that kind of, investigation and prosecution.

He he went after the Sackler family and for Purdue Pharma.

Yeah, for the OxyContin crisis.

Okay.

And he was played by Peter Sarsgaard in two phenomenal, phenomenal mini series.

I watched it and my brother had an issue with OxyContin, so I was very interested in it.

At the the last episode, his partner in the in this in the show comes in and says, I, we have our next case and it's another pharmaceutical and it's against Abbott Labs for off marketing.

Depakote to nursing homes to chemically restrain them.

Well, my mom was a victim of that.

And I said, I have to have this man on my podcast, which is Love Conquers Paul's.

And I said, I, I wrote him, he came on and I was in the throes of this crisis with my mom at the nursing home.

Well, don't you know, he also prosecuted nursing homes for fraud nationally for 20, over 20 years.

And he said, you're this.

You're not just dealing with a one off.

You're dealing with a systemic crisis.

Susie.

And he said, I'm retiring this year from federal prosecutor.

As a prosecutor said, if you do something which you should in terms of film, he said, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring.

So we he came on and this was his first time ever producing.

And people were like, oh, you talk to Tony?

Oh, I'm in.

We'll talk, you know, and and you kind of knew the people that didn't want to talk were in indebted somehow.

And Rick taught me the term basically follow the money.

And that's what you have to realize is that some people have a stake in it.

it's needed and the education is so important.

And before we end our conversation together, I would love to hear from you because you've made some changes, how our audience can support you.

Because this is so important, right?

I would love to talk about really quickly Raw, which is a movement that we are, launching now to with to coincide with the release of the the docu series.

It's now a three part docu series because there's so much information to tell, and this is all about the heart.

So if you think you've seen, you know, a story about this, you haven't seen a story about this until you watch this, I promise you, I promise you, I mean, it's going to hit you in the heart, it's going to hit, and you're going to really be impacted by it.

But we are starting a movement to go along with this, because we really need to take the power back into our hands as constituents and as public and as a as a collective called Raw, which stands for respect, oversight, advocacy and reform in long term care.

And we have a website which is no country for old people.com.

You'll find a way to to join it be a part of this help drive this kind of care or not care wealth care instead of health care into a better place.

We have to take it into our own hands.

We have to.

And I just want to thank you for giving us the power to do that, you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And thank you for joining us on everybody with Angela Williamson.

Viewers like you make this show possible.

Join us on social media to continue this conversation.

Good night and stay well.

Welcome back.

Season three guest.

Susie.

Susie, thank you so much for coming back.

Oh, it's my pleasure to be back here with you because you all in.

You're welcome.

Because when we talked in season three, you were in production for this empowering and also impactful document tree.

No Country for Old People.

But I've been watching you and you've made so much progress with it.

And that's why I knew it was important for you to come back, along with Fiona, because you both are creating art while being advocates at the same time.

So I want you to catch us up to what is going on with this incredible documentary.

Thank you.

And it's so true.

Art and advocacy are such a great, great combination because that's the power to it's the way to educate people because No Country for Old People is about really exposing the crisis that we have in long term care and the nursing home system, which is a broken system and has been for over 50 years.

The problem is nobody knows about it until you're in the throes of it, and then it's too late because you're playing whac-a-mole like so.

This happened to me with my mom 3 or 3 years ago this July, and the last six months of her life was a nightmare.

And she was at a five star facility here in Los Angeles.

And we I could not get care for her.

And more than that, she was being she was being tortured.

She was suffering so bad.

And people just kept gaslighting me going, she's okay.

This is normal.

This is her age.

This is Alzheimer's.

You're stressed out.

And I was like, this isn't feeling right.

Nobody should be treated like this.

This is wrong.

And that's what they're doing.

And, you know, the sad thing is that they're we are basically warehousing our most vulnerable.

And it's not just the elderly, it's there's a lot of people in long term care who have disability.

Right.

So you have people in your 20s, 30s, 40s who are confined to long term care, and they are not treated any better.

Why is there such a huge issue with long term care?

Is it because we are not catching up with the times?

Or is it, I mean, is it more of the policy behind it?

I mean, why is there such a disconnect there?

It's greed is a lot of money and and it's that that sector of our population is easy to dismiss.

So when there's no eyes on the situation, this situation stays status quo.

So you have a lot of investors who have come in and taken over the long term care industry.

And because there is constant flow of money from Medicare and Medicaid.

So it becomes like a big business.

It's a big business.

It's a big business, and it's not and it's a corrupt business.

So there's a whole business model, which we explain in the documentary, which basically is, you know, you've got these people that come in, these corporate corporations and, you know, real estate equity investors ready to come in and see this as a great flow of cash.

Right.

Follow the money and they build it up like like it is criminal enterprise.

So you have different related parties.

So they will buy these chains of nursing homes, long term care facilities.

They will own the management company.

They will own the the vendors.

They will own the nursing, you know, company they're going to own as much as they can.

Jack up their prices, pay themselves a lot, and then be shielded by their corporate veil.

So most of the time, we don't even know who is the true owner and what they do.

What do you think is the most expensive part of any business?

Are your employees?

Yes.

You've heard about understaffing.

You have to have heard that that is a big key.

During a pandemic.

We heard about.

That about that.

Right.

And that's not new understaffing.

The reason why was such a crisis in in during during the pandemic was because we are chronically understaffed.

Why are we chronically understaffed?

Because that's how they make money, and they're never going to staff at the way it's supposed to.

They're going to fight it tooth and nail.

And the problem, the other problem is that the nursing home industry has a lobby, and that lobby is very strong, and that lobby makes sure to keep the system status quo.

Okay.

So what I hear you're saying is, first of all, is that when we look into this as a business, you're looking at one company owning several different entities of a business, but isn't that a monopoly?

I mean, I'm not an economic person.

Well, I have to bring someone, but to me that's a monopoly, because to the point of where you can make those decisions, making sure you don't have enough personnel also to because of their lobbying, there's no legislation to say that you need to have five personnel per two patients.

Right.

But and even if they do, you know, there's we have we have the center of a center for Medicare and Medicaid, right?

Yes.

CMS okay.

You're supposed to be the oversight.

They're supposed to be the regulators.

Right.

So even if a bill is passed, let's say in in California, there is a minimum staffing law.

However, who's there to enforce it?

Nobody.

Who's there to do the oversight?

Not many there are.

You know, we have you have surveyors, you have, ombudsman who will come in there.

They're generally, they're not paid.

They're volunteer.

But they'll come in and they're going to do a very cursory kind of overview.

So just like a glance at it.

Yeah, it's very performative.

And then if there is a very if there's someone that goes in and actually identifies an issue, they may get, you know, a penalty, which is nothing more than a slap on the hand and the cost of doing business.

So it's really nominal to them as the business owners, if you try to let's say you, you have, a negligent case of negligence and you want to go to court and sue on the behalf of your loved one, that, oh, those owners are so protected and, and and their identity is protected through the corporate fails.

So you really don't know who you're up against.

And that has been that's been one of the fights is to have transparency.

There's no transparency.

So when you are suing, say, one nursing home for neglect and abuse to your loved one, it's generally them following orders.

No, we can't do that test because it's too expensive.

Well, my mom doesn't need that test, but she does need that test because they get more payback for it.

It's it's it's all based on money and it's all motivated.

Oh, you know, for the most part.

And and when you think about who are, who are the front line workers, you guys are CNAs.

You, you know, you're certified nursing assistants.

You've got your registered nurses and your doctors.

There is much like a victim, as our loved ones because they this isn't what they signed up for.

And they're in it also too, when you're understaffed, the staff that's there, they're doing more and more.

So they can't keep up.

So having that.

Human didn't work.

You know, you got 30 people per one person.

How can they possibly give quality care and interaction?

You know, during this is a staggering, staggering case this in during Covid in the first month or two there there was close to over I want I want to say 200,000.

But I've been corrected.

I'm going to say there was at least 150 deaths of residents because they were isolated, not because of Covid.

And and that's staggering.

That's more than some wars, right?

150,000 people die for before their time, before their time, they were isolated and put in rooms alone because there wasn't enough staff.

They died alone.

What could be more tragic than that?

They were kept from their families.

I was kept from my mom for a year and a half.

I couldn't see her in person so that no one can survive like that.

There.

There were there was the core group of of people in their 90s at my mom's facility who would come out and we'd sing and they go, oh, Susie's here.

And they're she's going to put us in her movie.

And then, you know, they were just the loveliest people.

They were the cool group.

All of them passed during Covid and not from Covid.

The loneliness.

Loneliness they didn't have.

They didn't have social.

They were put in their rooms and ate alone, stayed in their rooms alone.

It's inhumane.

This is a human rights issue and we don't know about it.

Because this isn't just my mother's story.

This is all of our stories.

I don't want to get old and be in that situation.

We don't deserve that.

Right?

We don't.

It's tragic.

But, Yeah.

That's when I talked to you in season three.

You were in pre-production.

Yeah.

And a lot of pre-production.

So our audience will know when it comes to documentaries is a lot of research.

And as you started to research and find these numbers and find people to talk to you, was it easy or was it hard?

Because now we're looking at something that now we've turned big business, millions, billions of dollars.

There.

People sometimes get afraid to talk.

Oh for sure, for sure.

There's retaliation all the time.

My my partner, who I need to mention one of my partners is Rick Mountcastle, who is a form of former federal prosecutor and, district in general.

I'm sorry, assistant general, attorney general and, West Virginia.

And he was also the subject of the Hulu miniseries and Dopesick he's played by Peter Sarsgaard.

Oh.

So, Rick really knew how to, you know, really was is an is a powerhouse when it comes to that kind of, investigation and prosecution.

He he went after the Sackler family and for Purdue Pharma.

Yeah, for the OxyContin crisis.

Okay.

And he was played by Peter Sarsgaard in two phenomenal, phenomenal mini series.

I watched it and my brother had an issue with OxyContin, so I was very interested in it.

At the the last episode, his partner in the in this in the show comes in and says, I, we have our next case and it's another pharmaceutical and it's against Abbott Labs for off marketing.

Depakote to nursing homes to chemically restrain them.

Well, my mom was a victim of that.

And I said, I have to have this man on my podcast, which is Love Conquers Paul's.

And I said, I, I wrote him, he came on and I was in the throes of this crisis with my mom at the nursing home.

Well, don't you know, he also prosecuted nursing homes for fraud nationally for 20, over 20 years.

And he said, you're this.

You're not just dealing with a one off.

You're dealing with a systemic crisis.

Susie.

And he said, I'm retiring this year from federal prosecutor.

As a prosecutor said, if you do something which you should in terms of film, he said, I'd like to throw my hat in the ring.

So we he came on and this was his first time ever producing.

And, I don't know how I would have done it without him.

And I just want to thank you for giving us the power to do that, you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And thank you for joining us on everybody with Angela Williamson.

Viewers like you make this show possible.

Join us on social media to continue this conversation.

Good night and stay well.