>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

PUTIN'S TALKING POINTS FROM >> UMPIRE:.

WHAT DO RUSSIANS MAKE OF ALL OF THIS?

I ASKED DIPLOMAT AND TURNED KREMLIN CRITIC BORIS BONDAREV.

>>> THEN BACK ON HERE IN AMERICA, WHAT WILL CONGRESSMAN DO TO ASSERT ITS PREROGATIVE?

SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN JOINS ME.

PLUS >>> PLUNDERED.

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UKRAINE HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR ITS FREEDOM FROM 1093 DAYS AND MUST NOW CONTEND NOT ONLY WITH RUSSIA BUT ALSO A STUNNING REVERSAL IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES IS WELCOMING RUSSIA BACK INTO THE FOLD AND APPEARING TO TURN ON ITS OWN ALLY, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

AFTER DONALD TRUMP CALLED ZELENSKYY A DICTATOR, THERE WERE PHONE CALLS TO CAME FROM THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER AND IT IS PRESIDENT.

MEANWHILE, KEITH KELLOGG IS IN UKRAINE MEETING WITH ZELENSKYY TODAY.

ZELENSKYY SAID THE MEETING WAS PRODUCTIVE AND GRATEFUL FOR U.S. SUPPORT.

HE ALSO SAID HIS TEAM IS READY TO WORK WITH UNITED STATES ON THE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE A PROPER PIECE.

THIS WAS THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO WAS WITH THOSE TALKS IN RUSSIA SPEAKING TO FOX NEWS ABOUT RELATIONS BETWEEN THE ADMINISTRATION AND UKRAINE.

>> THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF FRUSTRATION HERE.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WAS VERY FRUSTRATED LEAVING THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

OUR SECRETARY OF TREASURY WHO TRAVELED ALL THE WAY TO KYIV IS ALSO FRUSTRATED, ALL ON TOP OF THE PRESIDENT OBVIOUSLY MAKES HIS FRUSTRATION WELL KNOWN.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS RECONCILABLE?GETTING MAD AT EAC OTHER OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS TWO COUNTRIES GOING TWO DIFFERENT WAYS?

>> NO, I THINK SO.

THE PRESIDENT ALSO SAID HOW MUCH HE LOVES THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

>> SO, NOT FORGETTING PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO CLAIM UKRAINE ITSELF IS TO BLAME FOR RUSSIA'S INVASION, ONE PUTIN ACOLYTE, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, IN FACT, WROTE, IF NO ONE TOLD ME THREE MONTHS AGO THESE WERE THE WORDS OF THE U.S. PRESIDENT I WOULD'VE LAUGHED OUT LOUD.

LET'S GET MORE NOW ON THE RUSSIAN VIEW OF THINGS.

BORIS BONDAREV WAS DIPLOMAT WHO QUIT HIS POST AND ANNOUNCE THE PUTIN REGIME AFTER IT INVADED UKRAINE.

HE JOINED ME FROM GENEVA.

BORIS BONDAREV, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU SOME NEWS THAT HAS ARRIVED HERE IN WASHINGTON, AND THAT IS U.S. INTELLIGENCE SAYS THAT IT DOES NOT BELIEVE VLADIMIR PUTIN IS EVEN INTERESTED IN THESE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, AND LET ME QUOTE, WE HAVE ZERO INTELLIGENCE THAT PUTIN IS INTERESTED IN A REAL PEACE DEAL RIGHT NOW, THIS ACCORDING TO ONE OF THE CONGRESSIONAL OFFICIALS HERE.

HE THINKS HE IS WINNING.

TELL ME HOW YOU REACT TO THAT.

>> I PERSONALLY FIND THESE STATEMENTS VERY CLOSE TO REALITY.

I THINK IT IS EVERYTHING THAT WE SEE, PUTIN IS SURE THAT HE CAN ACHIEVE HIS GOALS, SO TO SAY TO SUBJUGATE UKRAINE WITHOUT ANY OTHER CONCERNS, BY FORCE, I THINK IN A FEW MONTHS, SO HE DOES NOT REALLY NEED ANY NEGOTIATIONS ON ANY DEAL BECAUSE HE IS SURE HE CAN GET WHAT HE WANTS HIMSELF.

>> DO YOU THINK YOU CAN?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU QUIT AND RESIGNED IN PROTEST OVER THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF YOUR CRANE.

DO YOU THINK AFTER THREE YEARS IN WHICH THE RUSSIANS ARE BOGGED DOWN, DESPITE SOME SMALL TERRITORIAL GAINS HERE AND THERE OVER THE LAST YEAR, CAN HE WIN?

>> IF WE SPEAK ABOUT UKRAINE, THAT LOSES ITS ABILITY TO DEFEND ITSELF THEN I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE.

IT IS NOT ABOUT RUSSIAN ARMIES BEING BOGGED DOWN IN UKRAINE.

IT IS ABOUT THAT UKRAINE MAY LOSE ITS WILL TO DEFEND BECAUSE THEY MAY FEEL BETRAYED BY WESTERN ALLIES AND THEN RUSSIA HAS A LOT MORE MANPOWER, AND THE VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE IN RUSSIA WE SEE IS VERY LOW.

RUSSIA CAN WASTE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS TO BREAK THROUGH YOUR CRANE.

THAT IS WHY HE STEALS RESOURCES.

HE STEALS RESOURCES AND MAY WIN IF UKRAINE IS NOT SUPPORTED FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

>> SO, MR. BONDAREV, HOW DO YOU ANALYZE WHAT IS GOING ON, THIS SORT OF WAR OF WORDS BETWEEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OF UKRAINE WHO IS RESISTED ALL THESE YEARS WITH U.S. AND NATO SUPPORT, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO SEEMS TO BE BASICALLY GOING OUT ZELENSKYY FOR THE MOMENT, USING ALL PUTIN TALKING POINTS?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESULT OF THAT, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL RESULT, THE ACTUAL RESULT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT WOULD NOT IMPROVE THE MORALE AND THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES AND UKRAINIAN SOCIETY, AND THEY WILL ASK THEMSELVES, MAYBE IT IS TIME TO STOP.

MAYBE IT IS TIME TO FIND SOME AGREEMENTS WITH RUSSIA, THOUGH IT IS NOT VERY POSSIBLE, SO, THIS U.S.

RHETORIC AGAINST UKRAINIAN AUTHORITY IS VERY -- IS AGAINST THE VERY BASICS THE UNITED STATES HAD BEEN FOR SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR, AND OF COURSE IT IS PLACED IN THE HANDS OF PUTIN, SO I REALLY -- I HAVE NO CLUE WHY THE UNITED STATES TURNAROUND 180 DEGREES ON ALL ITS FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITIES.

>> BEFORE I GET INTO THE TALKS WITH RUSSIA, I WANT YOU TO THINK.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES IS DOING THAT?

WE HEAR, FOR INSTANCE, FROM RUSSIAN ANALYST AND THIS AND THAT, PEOPLE ANALYZING THE KREMLIN.

WE KNOW WHY PUTIN IS COZYING UP TO TRUMP, BECAUSE HE BELIEVES THAT UNDER TRUMP, AMERICA'S LEADERSHIP GETS EVEN WEAKER, AND THAT SUITS HIM.

IT SUITS CHINA.

IT SUITS EVERYBODY JUST FINE.

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS 180 IS HAPPENING THOUGH, FROM THE U.S. SIDE?

>> WELL, I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON AMERICAN POLITICS OF COURSE, BUT MY IMPRESSION IS THAT FIRST, PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO HAVE HIS OWN PERSONAL FOR POLICY -- FOREIGN-POLICY WIN, FOREIGN POLICY SUCCESS, TO IN THIS WERE AS HE PROMISED HIS VOTERS AND SECOND, I THINK HE MAY STILL BELIEVE THAT HE CAN SUCCEED IN SPLITTING RUSSIA FROM CHINA, AND THAT HAS BEEN A VERY POPULAR AMERICAN POLITICAL NARRATIVE FOR YEARS, THAT RUSSIA CAN BE SOMEHOW PULLED AGAINST CHINA SO UNITED STATES COULD FOCUS ON ITS STRATEGIC VISION WITH CHINA AND I THINK IT IS REALLY BASELESS, FOR NOW.

RUSSIA WILL NOT BE SPLIT FROM CHINA BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT IN COMMON.

THEY SUPPORT EACH OTHER IN THE UNITED STATES IS VERY UNPREDICTABLE RIGHT NOW, SO THE UNITED STATES IS NOT THE COUNTRY TO BE TRUSTED, SO I DON'T THINK WHY THIS HOPE IS STILL SURVIVING AN AMERICAN ALLIANCE.

IT IS A BIG QUESTION .

>> IT IS INTERESTING, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, AMERICA IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED, IS VERY UNPREDICTABLE AT THIS PRECISE MOMENT.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU KNOW, HE IS A VETERAN IN THE SENATE, MARCO RUBIO, THE CURRENT SECRETARY OF STATE AND THE TRUCK NEGOTIATING TEAM WENT TO MEET WITH LOVE ROB -- LAVROV IN SAUDI ARABIA.

FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE RUSSIAN SIDE WHAT YOU THINK THEY ACHIEVED IN THOSE TALKS?

>> FIRST, THEY ACHIEVE THAT THOSE TALKS TOOK PLACE.

IT IS A GREAT WIN FOR RUSSIA.

RUSSIA IS GOING OUT FROM THIS DIPLOMATIC ISOLATION, SO UNITED STATES HAS STARTED THIS NEGOTIATION PROCESS AND RUSSIA IS MORE OR LESS CONFIDENT THAT THE UNITED STATES, FOR NOW, IS GOING TO CONTINUE THIS PROCESS.

THIS IS A GOOD VENUE TO SQUEEZE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP AND GET AS MANY CONCESSIONS AS POSSIBLE.

TAKING INTO ACCOUNT, HE IS BEING SO EAGER TO STRIKE A DEAL.

IT IS MY PERSONAL IMPRESSION AGAIN, THAT IT SEEMS TO ME PRESIDENT TRUMP IS VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN STRIKING A DEAL AND SIGNING SOME AGREEMENT WITH PUTIN WITHOUT GOING INTO DETAIL WHAT THIS DEAL WILL BE REALLY ABOUT.

SO, I THINK FOR HIM, THE MAIN THING IS JUST TO SIGN SOMETHING AND TO SHOW ALL OF HIS PEOPLE, UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD THAT HE IS A GREAT DEALMAKER AND PEACE [ INAUDIBLE ] AND WHAT THIS PIECE WILL REALLY LOOK LIKE IS A SECONDARY ISSUE SO I THINK RUSSIANS AGAIN EXPLOIT THIS TO THEIR BENEFIT.

>> THAT IS THE DANGER FOR THIS AMERICAN SIDE.

AS I SAID, RUBIO IS A VETERAN OF THE SENATE.

HE HAS SAID THINGS IN THE PAST THAT INDICATE THAT HE KNOWS WHO IS TO BLAME.

IT IS RUSSIA THAT INVADED UKRAINE, ET CETERA.

THEY ALL KNOW THAT THE RUSSIANS LIED ABOUT THEIR INTENTIONS IN 2022, SAYING THEY WOULD NEVER INVADE AND THEN INVADING, BUT TO YOUR POINT ABOUT EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE, CERTAINLY AT THAT MEETING THEY TALKED ABOUT BETTER ECONOMIC TIES BETWEEN THE U.S. AND RUSSIA.

THEY TALKED ABOUT MORE DIPLOMATICALLY, POTENTIALLY OPENING THEIR EMBASSIES AND EACH OTHER'S COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE SAID IN A RECENT INTERVIEW THAT TRUCK'S APPROACH HERE IS RISKY FOR HIM PERSONALLY.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> I MEAN THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SEEMS TO CONSIDER INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS MERELY IS JUST BUSINESS DEALS, AND BUSINESS RELATIONS, AND RUSSIANS ARE TRYING TO USE IT, TRYING TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS BUSINESS PARTNERS AND TRYING TO LURE HIM INTO SOME PROFITABLE BUSINESS CONTRACTS, AND THAT IS WHY THEY TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC TIES.

THEY SPEAK ABOUT SOMETHING TANGIBLE, BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND PRESIDENT TRUMP VALUE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE TOUCHED BY HANDS, SO TO SPEAK.

HE DOES NOT CARE MUCH ABOUT GEOPOLITICAL ADVANTAGES.

HE DOES NOT CARE MUCH ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

HE WANTS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE VALUED, AND PREFERABLY, MONEY.

WE GIVE YOU SOME ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES, MAYBE SOME INVESTMENTS, MAYBE OIL AND GAS DEPOSITS OR SOMETHING.

ANYTHING, HIS INTEREST IN THIS NEGOTIATION AND THIS DEAL.

>> IN 2022 YOU RESIGNED YOUR DIPLOMATIC POST TO PROTEST THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

MANY RUSSIANS HAVE NOT DONE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

CAN YOU TELL ME HOW YOU HAVE BEEN DOING OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS?

DO YOU THINK THAT WHAT YOU DID MADE A DIFFERENCE, AND HOW DO YOU THINK IT IS GOING TO PLAY OUT, THIS WAR, AS IT CONTINUES IN RUSSIA ITSELF?

>> IT BRINGS NO BENEFIT TO RUSSIA.

LIFE IN RUSSIA IS GROWING POOR, IS GROWING LESS AND LESS FREE, AND THE PUTIN REGIME IS GROWING MORE AND MORE REPRESSIVE, BUT THAT SAID, FOR NOW, THE MAJORITY OF RUSSIAN CITIZENS STILL DO NOT FEEL MUCH OF THE IMPACT OF THIS WAR.

LIFE GOES ON AS IT WAS.

IN THE PAST.

THAT IS WHY THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IS STILL QUITE INDIFFERENT.

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS WAR BECAUSE THE WAR DOES NOT TOUCH THEM PERSONALLY.

THAT GIVES PUTIN ANOTHER PILLAR OF SUPPORT, SO TO SPEAK.

THE POPULATION DOES NOT WANT THIS WAR, BUT THEY DO NOT OPPOSE IT, EITHER, AND THUS HE CAN CONTINUE AS LONG AS THE WAR DOES NOT COME TO RUSSIA, AND IT DOES NOT NOW.

IT IS ALL IN UKRAINE, SO PUTIN, FROM THIS POINT OF VIEW, HE HAS GOOD PROSPECTS.

>> IT IS REALLY AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT AND WE ARE GRATEFUL TO HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND YOUR CONSIDERED ANALYSIS ON THIS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> FROM THE BEGINNING ANALYSTS HAVE PREDICTED THAT PUTIN WOULD SIMPLY WAIT OUT THE WEST.

HERE IN WASHINGTON, THE CONDEMNATION OF PROJECTS WORDS AGAIN SO IN WAS SWIFT FROM DEMOCRATS, AT LEAST.

ONLY A FEW REPUBLICANS JOINED THE FRAY.

FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE DID.

HE CRITICIZED THE PRESIDENT FOR CLAIMING UKRAINE WAS TO BLAME FOR THE WAR.

THOSE IN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS CERTAINLY HAVE A LOT ON THEIR HANDS WITH CHAOTIC CUTS BARRELING THROUGH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

ELISSA SLOTKIN IS A DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM CAPITOL HILL.

SENATOR, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

I FIRST WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU, SOME OF WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE FOR INSTANCE, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CURRENT TALK BETWEEN TRUMP AND HIS OFFICIALS AND THE ZELENSKYY?

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO END?

ZELENSKYY TRIED TO PUT A POST OUT THAT LOWERED THE TEMPERATURE TODAY.

>> YES, AND I THINK HE HAS TO DO THAT.

HE MUST FEEL UNDER PRESSURE.

AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE LAST WEEK YOU COULD HEAR DIFFERENT VOICES COMING OUT OF THE REPUBLICANS WRIT LARGE YOU HAD FOLKS AROUND VANCE.

YOU HAD FOLKS AROUND RUBIO.

YOU HAVE THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS I WAS TRAVELING WITH WHO HAD DIFFERENT VIEWS AND APPROACHES TO ZELENSKYY.

OBVIOUSLY IT GOT HOT THIS WEEK BECAUSE OF TRUCK'S COMMENTS BUT IF YOU ARE IN ZELENSKYY'S SHOES, THERE'S NOTHING TO DO BUT TRY TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE.

WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IS THIS MOMENT IN TIME, A COUNTRY THAT FOR MANY YEARS HAS HAD A CONSISTENT POLICY TOWARD THE SOVIET UNION AND RUSSIA AND WATCHING AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT COZY UP TO VLADIMIR PUTIN IS STUNNING, NOT TO MENTION JUST A BAD NEGOTIATING TACTIC BUT I THINK ZELENSKYY IS TRYING TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE BECAUSE HE IS TRYING TO DO WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO SAVE HIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED HISTORICALLY, PARTICULARLY THE REPUBLICANS, HAVE HAD A VERY TRADITIONAL TOUGH AGAINST RUSSIA, ANTI-COMMUNIST CLEAR POSITION HISTORICALLY ON RUSSIA AND THAT SEEMS TO BE CHANGING.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE REPUBLICANS ARE NOT STEPPING UP MORE TO FULFILL THAT HISTORIC ROLE?

I JUST WANT TO READ WHAT FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE WROTE.

HE SAID MR. PRESIDENT, UKRAINE DID NOT START THIS WAR.

RUSSIA LAUNCHED AN UNPROVOKED AND BRUTAL INVASION CLAIMING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES.

THE ROAD TO PEACE MUST BE BUILT ON TRUTH.

SO, THEY JUST THAT AND THEN WHY DO YOU THINK REPUBLICANS ARE SORT OF SITTING THERE HISTORIC ROLE ON THIS ISSUE?

>> I COME FROM MICHIGAN.

THERE ARE DEFINITELY CONCERNS, AND ISOLATIONIST CONCERN IN THE COUNTRY, PEOPLE FEELING LIKE WE SHOULD NOT BE SENDING SO MUCH MONEY OVERSEAS.

THAT IS A VERY REAL FILLING BUT I THINK THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LEADERSHIP IS TO SAY LOOK, WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PROLONG THIS WAR.

WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO THIS BUT WE CAN'T DO IT ON THE CHEAP.

WE CAN'T DO IT BY GIVING EVERYTHING TO AN AUTOCRATIC LEADER BIKE PUTIN.

WE HAVE TO NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH IN A WAY THAT MAKES CLEAR THAT IF YOU INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY YOU DON'T GET A BUNCH OF TOYS AND KUDOS AFTERWARDS.

I UNDERSTAND THE INSTINCT AND A LOT OF LEADERS AND THE WHITE HOUSE ARE POPULISTS, THEY ARE RESPONDING TO THE SENTIMENT IN THE COUNTRY WHICH IS REAL BUT LEADERSHIP HAS A SPECIAL RESPONSIBILITY NOT JUST TO CLOSE A DEAL TODAY BUT TO ALSO THINK ABOUT THE IMPACT DOWN THE ROAD SO I THINK ABOUT IS THE MESSAGE THIS SENSE NOT JUST TO EUROPE BUT TO CHINA, AND I THINK IF YOU CARE ABOUT WHO IS GOING TO LEAD IN THE NEXT CENTURY, EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK I WANT THAT TO BE THE UNITED STATES OVER SOMEONE LIKE PUTIN OR SOMETHING LIKE CHINA AND I THINK THIS SENDS THE OPPOSITE MESSAGE, MATT MESSAGE.

>> WITH YOUR MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE BACKGROUND, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT OKAY, YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO SEND $40 BILLION OF USA I.D.

OR USAID TO UKRAINE BUT IS IT NOT CHEAPER TO DO THAT THEN HAVE TO GO TO WAR OR WHATEVER, MANAGE A PUTIN VICTORY?

>> YES.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY TO PEOPLE'S LOOK, WE SEE THAT WE ARE SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY ON UKRAINE, AS ARE THE EUROPEANS, TO HELP THEM DEFEND BUT IF WE JUST LET PUTIN ROLL OVER THIS COUNTRY, ROLLOVER UKRAINE, HE WON'T STOP THERE.

HE'S LIKE A TODDLER.

UNTIL HE HAD SOME BOUNDARY, HE'S NOT GOING TO STOP.

HE HAS BEEN OPEN ABOUT THAT SO NEXT HE WILL BE IN NATO COUNTRY AND WE WILL BE PROMPTED TO GET IN.

HE WILL KEEP GOING AND TO ME, IT IS THE VALUE PROPOSITION OF LET THE UKRAINIANS DEFEND THEMSELVES SO WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE AMERICAN SONS AND DAUGHTERS BEEN CARTED OFF TO WAR WITH THE NUCLEAR POWER.

THAT IS THE VALUE PROPOSITION BUT I HAVE TO SAY, I THINK EVERYONE AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE UNDERSTOOD THAT WE ARE AT A BIT OF A STALEMATE, YOU KNOW, IN UKRAINE.

ONE SIDE IS NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY WIN, SO MOST PEOPLE ACCEPTED THAT WE WERE GOING TO GO TO A NEGOTIATION.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE THIS WEEK IS THAT TRUMP HAS COMPLETELY SHOWN HIS HAND.

HE IS SO COZIED UP TO PUTIN AND SAID LOOK, THIS IS BETWEEN US AND WE WANT TO DO ALL THESE THINGS WITH YOU, THAT HE HAS GIVEN AWAY THE FARM BEFORE THE NEGOTIATIONS BARELY HAVE BEGUN SO EVEN IF YOU AGREE WITH THE PRESIDENT, JUST GIVING AWAY YOUR LEVERAGE LIKE THAT MAKES NO SENSE AS A NEGOTIATOR.

>> SENATOR, YOU ARE RIGHT.

SO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE IT IS TIME TO END THIS WAR AND ARE LOOKING TO TRUCK TO SEE WHAT HE CAN DO THAT AND FULFILL THAT CAMPAIGN PROMISE, BUT AS WE HAVE SEEN, AND I WAS AT MUNICH, AS WELL, IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS AROUND THE BACK OF UKRAINE, WHICH CLEARLY IS A NONVIABLE PROPOSITION BUT MORE TO THE POINT, I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE LATEST APPARENTLY U.S. INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENT THAT SAYS WE HAVE SEEN ZERO EVIDENCE THAT PUTIN ACTUALLY WANTS TO NEGOTIATE A REAL END TO THIS, AND HE THINKS HE IS WINNING.

>> I DON'T THINK YOU NEED AN INTELLIGENCE REPORT TO SEE THAT.

I THINK IF YOU ARE PUTIN, YOU WERE REALLY EXCITED TO HAVE DONALD TRUMP WIN THE ELECTION.

YOU ARE NOW SITTING AT THE BIG WOOD TABLE WITH HIM IN SAUDI ARABIA AND HAVING A REAL CONVERSATION.

YOU ARE BEING BROUGHT BACK INTO THE DIPLOMATIC FAMILY AFTER BEING OSTRACIZED FOR THE YEARS OF THE WAR.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE GETTING THE PLAY THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION SO AT THE PENTAGON, WE ALWAYS USED TO SAY, YOU NEVER NEGOTIATE ABOUT THEM WITHOUT THE MEANING OF COURSE I BELIEVE THE UKRAINIANS SHOULD BE IN THE ROOM.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ACCEPT THE STEEL, TOO, BUT THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW TRUMP IS MASTERMINDING EVERYTHING WENT TO THE CASUAL OBSERVER, IF YOU ARE VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOUR POPPING CHAMPAGNE IN MOSCOW.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT CAUSED A BIT OF A RUPTURE.

ZELENSKYY SAID IT TO ME ON STAGE WHEN I DIRECTLY ASKED HIM ABOUT THE IDEA OF SELLING, GIVING, WHATEVER THE CORRECT TERMINOLOGY IS, A PORTION OF THEIR RARE EARTHS, MAKING SOME SORT OF DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE KNOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO DO IT.

WE KNOW ZELENSKYY HELD OUT IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS DEAL WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT NOW WE KNOW ALSO FROM NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER WALLS THAT THIS BUSINESS IS CAUSING TROUBLE FOR TRUMP AND THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD CNN.

>> LET'S TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC AND SIGN THE DEAL.

HE IS OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A TREMENDOUS STEP FORWARD.

>> HOW DO YOU SEE THAT GIVEN THAT THE DEMOCRATS ALSO WANTED TO DO A DEAL ON THIS?

>> ZELENSKYY TALKED ABOUT THIS IN OUR MEETING WITH HIM WITH SENATORS IN THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

IF YOU ARE ZELENSKYY, YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO TURN TO YOUR COUNTRYMEN AND SAY WE KNOW YOU'VE BEEN FIGHTING.

WE KNOW YOU'VE BEEN DYING.

YOU'VE BEEN DEFENDING OUR COUNTRY.

WE WERE NOT THE AGGRESSOR.

PUTIN WAS THE AGGRESSOR AND NOW WE ARE HAVING TO REALLY FACE FACTS AND MAKE A DEAL SO YOU WANT TO MAKE THAT DEAL AS POSITIVE AS POSSIBLE.

IT SEEMS THAT HE IS WILLING TO HAVE THE SECOND CONVERSATION BUT YOU BETTER BELIEVE HE IS LOOKING FOR SOME SECURITY GUARANTEES IN RESPONSE TO THAT.

OTHERWISE, WHAT ARE WE DOING?

OTHERWISE PUTIN IS JUST GOING TO WAIT FOR TRUMP TO MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE AND JUST TO START THE WERE BACKUP.

SO, IF YOU ARE ZELENSKYY, THERE IS A TRADE TO BE MADE, I'M SURE, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT WITHOUT SOME SORT OF GUARANTEE THAT YOU ARE NOT JUST GOING TO BE RE-INVADED IN TWO, THREE, FOUR YEARS DOWN THE LINE SO IT SEEMS LIKE HE'S WILLING TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION BUT HE'S GOING TO WANT SOMETHING FOR IT.

>> YOU SAID HE WAS TOLD TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT, THAT THE U.S., THIS ADMINISTRATION WANTED 50% ALMOST IN PERPETUITY AND HE SAID I CAN'T SELL OUT MY COUNTRY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT AND THEN IF YOU COULD, HE TRIED TO GET OUT OF HIM AND MUNICH WHAT SECURITY GUARANTEES WOULD ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE.

DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE CLARITY ON THAT?

>> HE DID DESCRIBE IN THE MEETING THAT HE HAD BEEN PRESENTED WITH A DOCUMENT BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IT WAS SORT OF SHOVED IN FRONT OF HIM AND THEY WANTED HIM TO SIGN IT WITHOUT READING IT.

THAT IS NOT THE WAY WE DEAL WITH PARTNERS AND ALLIES.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK OF THE WAR THAT IS JUST NOT EFFECTIVE AND HE WOULD NOT SIGN IT, TO HIS CREDIT.

BUT, I THINK IN TERMS OF SECURITY GUARANTEES, THERE ARE A BUNCH OF WAYS TO SKIN THIS CAT.

THERE ARE A BUNCH OF WAYS TO THINK ABOUT THE EUROPEANS BEING INVOLVED, A BUNCH OF WAYS TO THINK ABOUT US DOING OCCASIONAL TRAINING WITH THE UKRAINIANS.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF WAYS TO DO IT BUT IF YOU ARE HIM YOU CANNOT IN THIS WAR IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COMMITMENT THAT ANOTHER WAR IS NOT GOOD START FOR YOUR TERRITORY.

SO, I THINK THAT IS WHERE WE SHOULD BE HAVING A REAL CONVERSATION WITH NATO AND THE EUROPEANS.

TRUMP HAS BEEN OPEN THAT HE WANTS THE EUROPEANS TO LEAD ON THIS.

FINE, THE LET'S HAVE THAT CONVERSATION AND WHAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IS THAT TRUMP IS ALREADY GIVING AWAY THE FARM AND SAYING TO VLADIMIR PUTIN, DON'T WORRY, WE WON'T HAVE ANY TROOPS IN THERE.

THE EUROPEANS WON'T HAVE TROOPS.

THEY DON'T WANT HAVE TROOPS.

HE HAS EATING AWAY AT ANY SORT OF ASSURANCES THAT ZELENSKYY WILL NEED THAT THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE EVERY INVASION, SO THAT IS WHY IT PAYS TO HAVE PEOPLE AT THE TABLE WITH YOU.

>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, EARLY ON, ZELENSKYY WAS READY TO HAVE NEGOTIATIONS.

IT WAS NOT RECIPROCATED BY RUSSIA.

RUSSIA'S MAXIMALIST DEMANDS THAT THEY WANT EVERYTHING INCLUDING THE ABJECT SURRENDER OF UKRAINE HAVE NOT CHANGED, SO PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN REMARKS YESTERDAY, THAT HE WILL SOON BE HAVING LUNCH WITH DEMOCRATS.

I ASSUME HE MEANS SENATORS LIKE YOU.

IF YOU WERE TO BE INCLUDED WITH ALL THAT WE HAVE JUST TALKED ABOUT, INCLUDING EUROPE'S ROLE, AND HOW THIS CONCLUDES, WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE?

>> MY ADVICE WOULD BE FIRST OF ALL, HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE PLAYERS, ALL THE PLAYERS.

IF YOU WANT EUROPE AND NATO TO DO MORE, THEY HAVE GOT TO BE INCLUDED IN THE ENDGAME CONVERSATION.

YOU CANNOT EXPECT THEM TO DO MORE THAN THAT BRING THEM INTO THE CONVERSATION AND REMEMBER, RONALD REAGAN.

REMEMBER THE REPUBLICAN LEADER WHO HELPED US WIN THE COLD WAR OVER THE SOVIET UNION.

HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS A FIGHT GOING ON GLOBALLY FOR LEADERSHIP OF THE NEXT CENTURY, AND HE PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND THAT HE WANTED IT TO BE THE UNITED STATES.

NOT THAT WE ARE PERFECT, BUT THAT WE DO ANYTHING RIGHT -- EVERYTHING RIGHT BUT ANY DAY OF THE WEEK I WANT AMERICAN LEADERSHIP OVER CHINESE LEADERSHIP OR RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP.

MAKE THAT SAME CLAIM AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE AS MUCH AID AND YOU CAN CUT BACK THINGS THAT YOU WANT, BUT DECIDE THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY POSTURE THAT CREATES INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND SECURITY AND IF YOU SAY YOU CARE ABOUT CHINA, THEY ARE WATCHING EVERYTHING THAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW.

THEY ARE TAKING NOTES, SO MR. PRESIDENT, I WOULD SAY PLEASE, THINK ABOUT NOT JUST MAKING A DEAL TODAY, BUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR HISTORY AND THE CHINESE WHO ARE WATCHING EVERY MOVE.

>> SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SORT OF EARTHQUAKE THAT IS HAPPENING HERE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO COMPLETELY RESHAPE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND IT APPEARS TO BE TOTALLY TESTING THE BOUNDS OF EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY.

I WANT TO READ YOU SOMETHING FROM A WASHINGTON POST COLUMN.

HARI SREENIVASAN FIRST MONTH IS STRIKING, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS BUT ALSO BECAUSE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF AMERICANS AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE APPLAUDING HIS AGGRESSIVE APPROACH TO THE JOB.

THE COUNTRY APPEARS TO BE IN A DARK MOOD WITH SOME VOTERS' HUNGER FOR DESTRUCTION OUTWEIGHING THEIR IMPULSE TO FOLLOW AMERICAN TRADITIONS.

WOULD YOU AGREE, AND WHAT WOULD YOU SAY SHOULD BE THE DEMOCRATIC RESPONSE TO THIS REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION?

>> I THINK THAT IS ACTUALLY A FAIR DESCRIPTION.

I REPRESENT MICHIGAN, WHICH VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP AND ME ON THE SAME BALLOT JUST RECENTLY IN NOVEMBER, AND I THINK PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY WANT, YOU KNOW, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR GOVERNMENT IS DOING FOR THEM IN A MORE SIGNIFICANT WAY, AND THEY HAVE BEEN HEARING AND REPEATING THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS TOO BIG BUT HERE'S THE THING.

WE ARE WATCHING ALL THESE CUTS HAPPEN.

WE ARE WATCHING THEM JUST KIND OF WILLY-NILLY LET GO OF THOUSAND PEOPLE HERE, THOUSAND PEOPLE THERE.

I THINK AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE FINE WITH THAT UNTIL IT AFFECTS THEM.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE BEING LET GO OR FLIGHTSAFETY INSTRUCTORS.

WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF PLANE CRASHES JUST IN THE PAST SIX OR EIGHT WEEKS, PEOPLE ARE LET GO WHO ARE WORKING ON AVIAN FLU AND I'VE GOT DEAD BIRDS SHOWING UP ALL OVER MICHIGAN.

THEY HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING LET GO FROM OUR NUCLEAR SECURITY APPARATUS, THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, PEOPLE WHO IN THE DARK OF NIGHT KEEP US SAFE, SO I THINK IT'S ONE THING TO SAY THEORETICALLY I WANT TO CUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

IT'S ANOTHER THING WHEN YOU LET IS BEING -- WATER IS BEING TESTED IN LEAD SHOWS UP IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

AGAIN, THE JOB OF A LEADER IS NOT JUST TO DO WHAT FEELS GOOD TO THE AVERAGE PERSON BUT ACTUALLY TO MAKE SURE YOU KEEP PEOPLE SAFE FROM PHYSICAL HARM AND THEY ARE SO INTERESTED IN SHOWING POLITICAL CUTS FOR POLITICAL REASONS, THEY ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT THE SAFETY OF AMERICANS AND THE CHICKENS WILL COME HOME TO ROOST ON THAT.

>> SO, YOU DID NOT TELL ME HOW DEMOCRATS CAN RESPOND.

MAYBE YOU CAN IN THE SECOND BECAUSE I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT VANITY FAIR HAS SAID, QUOTING A REPUBLICAN WHO IS BASICALLY SAID THAT IT HAS SWAYED HIS DECISION-MAKING BECAUSE THEY FEEL FOR THEIR PERSONAL SAFETY.

HERE IT SAYS ACCORDING TO ONE SOURCE WITH DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF EVENTS NORTH CAROLINA SENATOR THOM TILLIS TOLD PEOPLE THAT THE FBI WARNED HIM ABOUT QUOTE, CREDIBLE DEATH THREATS, AND HE WAS CONSIDERING VOTING AGAINST PETE HEGSETH'S NOMINATION FOR SECRETARY.

HE PROVIDED THE 50th ABOUT TO CONFIRM THE FORMER FOX AND FRIENDS HOST TO LEAD THE PENTAGON.

HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THAT FROM YOUR FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES AND AGAIN, WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

>> YES, I HAVE NOT HEARD THAT FROM MY REPUBLICAN SENATE COLLEAGUES BUT I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW OFTEN I HEARD THAT FROM MY HOUSE COLLEAGUES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, PARTICULARLY AFTER JANUARY 6.

I REMEMBER APPOINTED EXCHANGE WITH A REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN WHO VOTED AGAINST CERTIFYING THE ELECTION FOR JOE BIDEN EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW AND COULD SAY THAT JOE BIDEN WON THE ELECTION AND HE SAID YOU KNOW WHAT?

I'VE GOT MILITIAS FORMING IN MY DISTRICT.

THEY ARE THREATENING MY FAMILY, THEIR THREATENING MY STAFF SO I HAD TO VOTE AGAINST INDICATION AND I SAID YOU KNOW WHAT WE CALL THAT IN MY STATE?

WEDNESDAY, LIKE WELCOME TO IT.

LOTS OF US RECEIVED THREATS.

LOTS OF US HAVE HAD PEOPLE CONVICTED FOR THREATENING US BUT IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO CHANGE HER VOTE BECAUSE YOU ARE THREATENED, THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT JOB FOR YOU, SO I HEAR IT AND I DON'T WANT ANYONE EVER THREATENED.

IT IS JUST WRONG, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE, WHAT POLITICAL SIDE OF THE AISLE, BUT WE CANNOT START VOTING OUT OF FEAR BECAUSE THEN WHAT DO WE HAVE AS A COUNTRY?

WHAT DO WE HAVE?

>> SO, WHAT IS YOUR PARTY'S RESPONSE?

IS IT TO WAIT OUT AND WORK TOWARD THE MIDTERMS?

>> YES, I WOULD JUST SAY FOUR THINGS .

IT IS LEGISLATION, THINGS WE CAN DO HERE AND WE ARE ABOUT TO HAVE THE BUDGET COME IN FRONT OF US.

IT IS LITIGATION.

THAT IS ALMOST THE FRONT FOOT RIGHT NOW LIKE ALL COURTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY PUSHING BACK ON DOGE .

IT IS MESSAGING AND TRYING TO CATCH UP TO THE REPUBLICANS ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND LASTLY, IT IS ELECTIONS.

WE NEED FOUR SEATS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TO FLIP.

>> THERE ARE RUMORS THAT PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY, MIKE FIRE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS AND MAYBE THE FEMALE HEAD OF THE NAVY.

WHAT WOULD BE THE REACTION FROM COLLEAGUES?

>> WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD AN APOLITICAL MILITARY.

PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERVED AND RISKED THEIR LIVES WAY MORE THAN MR. HEGSETH AND HAVE PUT THEMSELVES ON THE LINE WITHOUT A POLITICAL AFFILIATION, SO I THINK IT IS DEEPLY DISTURBING FOR OUR APOLITICAL MILITARY AND IT IS HARD TO MISS THAT THE CHAIRMAN IS AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND THE SECRETARY IS FEMALE.

THOSE ARE THINGS THAT ARE HARD TO MISS.

>> SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN OF MICHIGAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> WE HEARD RUSSIA'S POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE FROM BORIS BONDAREV EARLIER BUT WHAT ABOUT ORDINARY PEOPLE THERE?

HOW ARE THEY REACTING TO THE NEW U.S.

APPROACH TO THEIR COUNTRY AND THE PRESIDENT CHICKS APPROACH AND UKRAINE?

FRED PLEITGEN SPOKE TO PEOPLE IN MOSCOW.

>> BREAKING NEWS ON KREMLIN -CONTROLLED TV.

EVEN THE ANCHOR CAN HARDLY BELIEVE HER EYES.

U.S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP CALLING UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT VLADIMIR ZELENSKYY QUOTE, A DICTATOR, AND A SOCIAL MEDIA POST.

THE TENSION, THIS IS INCREDIBLE, THE HOST SAYS.

TRUMP IS OBVIOUSLY ANGRY.

HAVING HAD MODERATE SUCCESS AS A COMEDIAN, WRITES THE U.S. PRESIDENT, ZELENSKYY COULD NOT HAVE WON IN THE U.S. IS GIVING HIM MONEY IN VAIN.

DONALD TRUMP CALLED ZELENSKYY A DICTATOR.

THIS IS WHAT HE WROTE.

MANY RUSSIANS NOW HOPING THAT TRUMP -INDUCED THOUGHT IN U.S.- RUSSIAN RELATIONS COULD BRING FAST SANCTION RELEASE.

AT THE SOUVENIR SHOP IN MOSCOW BOSS ALEXANDER IS REARRANGING DOLLS ACCORDING TO WHAT MANY HERE HOPE COULD BE THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

>> OUR PRESIDENT, AND AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND SOLOMON, OLD FRIENDS OF RUSSIA.

>> ON THE STREET, MUCH PRAISE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP, SOMETIMES MAYBE A BIT TOO MUCH.

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP?

>> I THINK MAYBE SMALL STALLION.

>> YOU THINK SMALL STALLION?

WHY?

>> [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> OF COURSE I LIKE TRUMP, HE SAYS.

HE WILL CHANGE AMERICA AND MAKE IT GREAT AGAIN.

MOSCOW'S LEADER IS OPTIMISTIC, SAYING THEY BELIEVE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION UNDERSTANDS THEIR VIEW OF THE UKRAINE WAR.

HERE, RUSSIAN TROOPS CONTINUED TO MAKE MODEST GAINS.

THIS RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY VIDEO PURPORTING TO SHOW DRONE UNITS HEADING UKRAINIAN POSITIONS.

RUSSIAN LEADER VLADIMIR PUTIN VISITING A DRONE FACTORY ALSO PRAISING TRUMP, SAYING A FACE-TO-FACE MEETING IS IN THE WORKS.

WE ARE NOT IN A POSITION WHERE IT IS ENOUGH TO MEET EACH OTHER, HAVE TEA OR COFFEE AND CHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE, HE SAYS.

WE NEED TO MAKE OUR TEAM'S PREPARE ISSUES THAT ARE CRUCIAL FOR BOTH RUSSIA AND THE U.S., INCLUDING THE UKRAINE CONFLICT, BUT NOT ONLY IT.

>> FRED PLEITGEN REPORTING FROM MOSCOW.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO A STORY OF AMERICAN NEIGHBORS ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE CLASS DIVIDE.

BERNADETTE ATUAHENE IS AN AUTHOR AND LAW PROFESSOR AND HER NEW BOOK, "PLUNDERED", EXPLORES WHAT SHE CALLS THE SYSTEMIC THE TREE IN AMERICA'S TAX SYSTEM.

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO REVEAL WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED FOLLOWING THE LIVES OF TWO FAMILIES IN DETROIT, ONE WHITE, ONE BLACK.

>> THANKS.

BERNADETTE ATUAHENE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE A TRAINED LAWYER FROM HARVARD AND YALE AND YOU RECENTLY WROTE A BOOK CALLED "PLUNDERED" , HOW RACIST POLICIES UNDERMINE BLACK HOMEOWNERSHIP IN AMERICA, AND YOU MENTIONED THAT ORIGINALLY THIS IS NOT THE BOOK YOU ARE SETTING OUT TO RIGHT.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> INITIALLY, MY FIRST ETHNOGRAPHIC PROJECT -- ALL MY WORK DEALS WITH LAND STOLEN FROM BLACK PEOPLE AND SO MY FIRST ETHNOGRAPHIC PROJECT DEALT WITH LAND STOLEN IN APARTHEID IN COLONIALISM SO THAT PROJECT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ME IN MANY WAYS BECAUSE IT WAS AGAIN, BLACK PEOPLE AS VICTIMS, SO MY NEXT PROJECT, I WANTED TO LOOK AT VULNERABLE POPULATIONS DOING THE STEALING SO I DECIDED TO DO A BIG PROJECT ON SQUATTING AND I GOT A BIG NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION GRANT TO STUDY SQUATTING IN DETROIT BECAUSE DETROIT HAS ONE OF THE LARGEST MODERN-DAY SQUATTING PHENOMENONS IN AMERICA AND THEN THROUGH THE RESEARCH OF SQUATTING, I ACCIDENTALLY FOUND THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE CRISIS AND SWITCHED MY PROJECT.

>> WHAT WAS THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE CRISIS IN DETROIT ALL ABOUT?

>> SINCE 2009, ONE IN THREE HOMES HAS COMPLETED THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE PROCESS , ONE IN THREE.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN THIS NUMBER OF PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURES IN AMERICAN HISTORY SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION, SO THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS GOING ON IN DETROIT?

WELL, I DID A STUDY THAT SHOWS BETWEEN 2009 AND 2015, AND EACH OF THOSE SEVEN YEARS, ANYWHERE BETWEEN 53 AND 84% OF HOMES, THE CITY WAS ASSESSING IN VIOLATION OF THE MICHIGAN STATE CONSTITUTION, WHICH QUITE CLEARLY SAYS NO PROPERTY CAN BE ASSESSED AT MORE THAN 50% OF THE PROPERTY'S MARKET VALUE BUT WHAT I NEED YOU TO UNDERSTAND IS, THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM UNIQUE TO DETROIT.

DETROIT IS JUST GROUND ZERO FOR A NATIONAL PROBLEM.

A RECENT STUDY FOUND THAT BLACKS AND HISPANICS PAY ON AVERAGE OF 10 TO 13% HIGHER PROPERTY TAX RATE THAN WHITES FOR THE SAME BUNDLE OF GOODS, WHICH EQUALS ON AVERAGE, THREE TO $400 MORE PER YEAR, SO RACIALIZED PROPERTY TAX ADMINISTRATION IS A RACIAL JUSTICE ISSUE THAT OUR NATION HAS NOT YET BEGUN TO ADDRESS.

>> HOW DOES IT ACTUALLY GET IMPLEMENTED?

WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING IS UNEQUAL CONDITIONS FOR PARCELS OF LAND THAT SHOULD OTHERWISE BE WORTH THE SAME, SO WHO OR HOW IS A PARTICULAR Z.I.P.

CODE OR AREA ON THE MAP GETTING ONE PROPERTY TAX DESIGNATION VERSUS ANOTHER?

>> THE WAY PROPERTY TAX VALUATION IS DONE, IT IS DIFFERENT.

WITH APPRAISALS, IT IS INDIVIDUAL HOUSE BY HOUSE, AND A LOT OF YOUR LISTENERS HAVE HEARD OF APPRAISAL BIAS.

THE STORY, THERE WAS THAT ONE PROFESSOR FROM BALTIMORE FOR JOHN HOPKINS WHO TRIED TO SELL HIS HOUSE, AND THEN DID IT AGAIN BY PUTTING HIS WHITE COLLEAGUE'S PICTURES THERE AND GOT A HIGHER VALUATION AND SO THAT IS CALLED APPRAISAL BIAS.

WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS WHAT WE CALL DOUBLE BIND.

BLACK AND BROWN HOMES, WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR APPRAISAL, THEY ARE UNDER-VALUE BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR PROPERTY TAXATION, THEY ARE OVERVALUED.

HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?

BECAUSE PROPERTY TAXATION IS NOT DONE WITH APPRAISAL.

IT IS DONE WITH MASS APPRAISALS, SO THEY DO THE APPRAISAL FOR A LARGER AREA, AND FOR INSTANCE IN MICHIGAN, THEY HAVE SOMETHING CALLED THE ECF, AND ECONOMIC CONDITION FACTOR, WHICH IS JUST AN AREA.

WHAT THEY DO IS TAKE THE AVERAGE SO BY DEFINITION, AN AVERAGE MEANS THAT THE HIGHER VALUE HOMES ARE GOING TO BE UNDERVALUED AND THE LOWER VALUED HOMES ARE GOING TO BE OVERVALUED.

ALL RIGHT, WHO LIVES IN THOSE LOWER VALUED HOMES?

VULNERABLE POPULATIONS.

INTERSECTIONALITY TELLS US BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE, WOMEN, POOR PEOPLE AND THAT IS THE PHENOMENON OF OVER ASSESSING LOWER VALUED HOMES IS CALLED REGRESSIVE IN THE AND THAT IS WHEN THE LOWER-VALUED HOMES ARE TAXED AT A HIGHER RATE THAN THE HIGHER ELLIOTT HOMES AND WE SEE REGRESSIVITY THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

>> RATED HERE, DETROIT AS AN EXAMPLE, THERE COULD BE OTHERS TO CITIES THIS IS HAPPENING IN AS WELL, OF PREDATORY GOVERNMENTS.

WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> PREDATORY GOVERNANCE IS WHEN OFFICIALS INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY RAISE PUBLIC DOLLARS THROUGH PROCESSES IN WRITTEN AND UNWRITTEN LAWS THAT PRODUCE RACIAL INEQUITY SO WHAT IS HAPPENING -- A CHARACTER IN MY BOOK, HER STORY REALLY EXEMPLIFIES THIS.

SHE HAD HER HOUSE, SHE INHERITED HER HOUSE FROM HER GRANDPARENTS AND THE CITY OF DETROIT THEN OVER TAXED HER HOME BECAUSE MOST OF THE HOMES THAT WERE OVERTAXED ARE THE LOWEST-VALUED HOMES AND SHE LOST THAT HOME THROUGH TAX FORECLOSURE.

WHO IS WINNING FROM THIS?

IT IS THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, NOT SOME KIND OF CORRUPT PUBLIC OFFICIAL.

WE ALSO SEE PREDATORY GOVERNANCE.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN FERGUSON BEYOND WHAT HAPPENS TO MICHAEL BROWN, WE HAVE AN EXCELLENT DOJ REPORT THAT SHOWS ENGAGEMENT IN UNCONSTITUTIONAL POLICING AND CHARGING AFRICAN-AMERICANS EXCESSIVE FEES AND FINES.

WHO BENEFITED FROM THAT?

NOT SOME CORRUPT POLICE OFFICER BUT THE CITY OF FERGUSON ITSELF.

WHETHER IT IS FERGUSON, NEW ORLEANS, PHILLY OR D.C., AND NOT JUST PROPERTY TAX, BUT IT IS A PHENOMENON I IDENTIFY IN THE BOOK CALLED PREDATORY GOVERNANCE.

>> YOU HAVE THIS NICE VEHICLE, TWO FAMILIES YOU TRACK OVER TIME FROM GRANDFATHER ON DOWN AND REALLY IT BECOMES A LITTLE BIT OF THE STORY OF INTERGENERATIONAL WEALTH, AND YOU SEE HOW CRUCIAL HOMEOWNERSHIP IS IN THAT.

SUMMARIZE FOR US THE JUXTAPOSITION BETWEEN THESE TWO GENTLEMEN.

>> THE BOOK, LIKE YOU SAID, STARTS WITH TWO GRANDFATHERS.

ONE IS GRANDPA GUCCI FROM ITALY.

HE WAS A SHARECROPPER IN ITALY THEM MAKES HIS WAY EVENTUALLY TO DETROIT TO WORK AT FORD RIVER FACTORY AND THE OTHER FACTORY IS GRANDPA BROWN WHO WAS ALSO A SHARECROPPER, BUT IN NORTH CAROLINA, AND HE ALSO MAKES IT THROUGH THE GREAT MIGRATION FROM NORTH CAROLINA TO DETROIT TO WORK AT THE SAME FACTORY, FORD'S RIVER ROUGE FACTORY.

I START WITH THESE TWO MEN WHO START THEIR WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS OF EACH OTHER.

THEY START THE SAME JOB AND I TRACK THEIR LIVES TO SHOW YOU THAT GRANDPA BUCCI DID NOT HAVE AN EASY LIFE.

HE LITERALLY HAD ONE FINGER CUT OFF THROUGH A WORK ACCIDENT BUT GRANDPA BUCCI AT NO MOMENT HAD TO DEAL WITH RACIALLY RESTRICTED GOVERNANCE LIKE GRANDPA BROWN DID WHICH ARE DEEDS THAT PREVENT AFRICAN-AMERICANS FROM FINDING HOUSING IN THE SUBURBS WHERE HOUSES WERE LARGER, CHEAPER, BIGGER, WITH BETTER AMENITIES.

ALTHOUGH GRANDPA BUCCI DID NOT HAVE AN EASY LIFE, HE HAD NO MOMENT HAD TO DEAL WITH REDLINING, WHICH IS WHEN RACIALLY RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS SEQUESTER BLACK PEOPLE IN NEIGHBORHOODS THAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THROUGH THE FAIR HOUSING ADMINISTRATION DREW A RED LINE AROUND THE BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK, SAYING THESE COMMUNITIES ARE NOW A CREDIT RISK AND THEN BANKS DID NOT LEND MONEY TO THESE COMMUNITIES, AND SO THERE WERE NO MORTGAGES, THERE WERE NO HOME IMPROVEMENT LOANS AND THE INEVITABLE RESULT OF THAT IS A DETERIORATED COMMUNITY.

ALTHOUGH GRANDPA BUCCI HAD IT HARD, HE NEVER DEALT WITH HIS COMMUNITY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CREATING A POLICY LIKE REDLINING THAT MADE THE VERY PRESENCE OF YOUR PEOPLE -- MAJOR VERY PRESENCE HAVE THE ABILITY TO REDUCE PROPERTY VALUES.

REDLINING MADE BLACK PEOPLE A PARIAH AND SO IT GOES THROUGH ALL OF THE RACIST POLICIES THAT GRANDPA BROWN HAD TO DEAL WITH, AND GRANDPA BUCCI DID NOT, AND IT LOOKS AT THEIR PROGENY.

GRANDPA BUCCI'S GRANDSON ROBERT CURRENTLY LIVES IN THE HOME THAT HE INHERITED FROM HIS GRANDFATHER AND I ASKED ROBERT, WHY DO YOU STILL LIVE IN THE SUM?

HE SAID I DON'T HAVE TO PAY A NOTE.

MY RISHA BROWN WHO IS THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF GRANDPA BROWN, SHE INHERITED HER GRANDFATHER'S HOME AND IT WAS NOT A VALUABLE ASSET.

IT WAS A MONEY PIT WORTH LESS THAN $10,000 AND IT REQUIRED ALL KINDS OF MAINTENANCE.

WHY?

BECAUSE THREE YEARS AND YEARS OF REDLINING, THE HOME, HER HOME AND THE HOMES AROUND IT WERE DEPRIVED OF INVESTMENT UNTIL THE MAINTENANCE WAS NOT DONE AND SO SHE INHERITED SOME MONEY PIT INSTEAD OF A VALUABLE ASSET.

>> IN YOUR RESEARCH YOU FOUND THAT BETWEEN 2010 AND 2016, DETROIT OVERTAXED HOMEOWNERS BY AT LEAST $600 MILLION AND IT YOU SAID THE CITY ITSELF IS NOT GAINING FROM ALL THIS MONEY.

WHO IS?

>> WHEN YOU FOLLOW THE MONEY IN DETROIT, JUST AS YOU SAID, IT IS NOT THE CITY OF DETROIT BENEFITING FROM THIS OVER TAXATION.

IT IS ACTUALLY A NET LOSS FOR THE CITY OF DETROIT BECAUSE WHEN YOU FORECLOSE ON A HOME, THE VALUE OF THE HOME NEXT TO IT REDUCES.

FORECLOSURE CAUSES BLIGHT, ET CETERA, SO THEN WHO IS BENEFITING AND THAT IS ONE OF THE MAIN REVEALS IN THE BOOK IS TO SHOW THE NUMBER ONE BENEFACTOR OF PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE AND DELINQUENCY IN DETROIT WAS WAYNE COUNTY BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT DETROIT WENT THROUGH THE LARGEST MUNICIPAL BANKRUPTCY IN U.S. HISTORY AND WAS TAKEN OVER BY AN EMERGENCY MANAGER BUT WHAT LOTS OF PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW IS THAT AT THE VERY SAME TIME, WAYNE COUNTY WAS IN A FINANCIAL EMERGENCY AND SAVED ITSELF FROM EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND BANKRUPTCY USING SOMETHING CALLED THE DELINQUENT TAX REVOLVING FUND, WHICH IS WHERE THAT 18% INTEREST ON DELINQUENT TAXES GOES, WHICH IS WHERE THE MONEY FROM ANY HOME SOLD THROUGH THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE OPTION GOES, AND SO THEY SAVE THEMSELVES FROM EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND BANKRUPTCY USING THIS MONEY IN THIS PARTICULAR ACCOUNT THAT COMES FROM PROPERTY TAX DELINQUENCY AND FORECLOSURE, DETROIT BUT AGAIN THAT IS THE BIGGEST MONEYMAKER BUT AGAIN AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, I GO THROUGH THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT ENTITIES ALSO IN ADDITION MAKING MONEY FROM PROPERTY TAX DELINQUENCY AND FORECLOSURE IN DETROIT.

>> IS THERE A WAY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS AT THE ROOT OF THIS?

IS RACISM PART OF THIS AT A HUMAN LEVEL, OR IS IT REALLY AT A POLICY LEVEL BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU KINDA SEEM TO BE LOOKING AT.

>> YES, AND YOU KNOW, THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY, WE ARE LOOKING FOR THE RACIST.

HOLLYWOOD HAS TAUGHT US TO LOOK FOR BLACK HATS, WHITE HATS, GOOD GUYS, BAD GUYS.

WE NEED TO SHIFT FROM THAT TO REALLY THINKING ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF RACIST POLICIES.

THERE ARE CERTAIN POLICIES, WHETHER IMPLEMENTED INTENTIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY, IS NOT MY CONCERN.

I'M SAYING LET'S MOVE AWAY FROM INTENT AND LOOK AT THE VARIOUS POLICIES AND IF THOSE POLICIES ARE CAUSING RACIAL INEQUITY THAN I CALL THEM RACIST POLICIES.

I GET THAT TERM FROM ABRAHAM KINDE.

HIS WORK HAS INFLUENCED ME GREATLY AND IF WE HAVE THESE RACIST POLICIES THAN THE IDEA IS TO DISASSEMBLE THEM.

WHAT DO RACIST POLICIES LOOK LIKE IN THE AREA OF DETROIT?

IT LOOKS LIKE THE LOWEST VALUED HOMES IN THE CITY BEING TAXED AT A HIGHER RATE THAN A HIGHER VALUED HOME.

IT LOOKS LIKE STATUTORILY MANDATED 18% INTEREST PENALTY ON PROPERTY TAX DEBT, WHICH MAKES SENSE IF PEOPLE HAVE THE MONEY AND THEY ARE NOT PAYING, BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE IF POOR PEOPLE ARE NOT PAYING BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY AND THAT IS WHY WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO MAKE THE SHIFT FROM TALKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACISM, SYSTEMIC RACISM TO TALKING ABOUT RACIST POLICIES BECAUSE RACIST POLICIES NUMBER ONE IS SOMETHING PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND.

NUMBER TWO, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACISM, THAT IS SO OVERWHELMING.

WHAT DO I DO ABOUT THAT BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RACIST POLICIES, IT FORCES THE PERSON ARTICULATING THE IDEA TO ENUMERATE EXACTLY THE POLICIES JUST AS I HAVE DONE, SO THAT WE CAN MOVE TO THE SPACE OF TRYING TO DISASSEMBLE THOSE POLICIES.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO WATCH THIS CONVERSATION AND SAY, BUT, WHERE IS THE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY IN ALL OF THIS?

WHY IS IT DETROIT SEEMS TO HAVE THESE KIND OF PROBLEMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND I THINK THEY'RE ALSO ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BLAME THE VICTIMS, RIGHT, AND SAY THIS IS YOUR FAULT.

YOU SHOULD'VE KNOWN BETTER.

YOU SHOULD'VE READ THE FINE PRINT BEFORE YOU SIGN, ET CETERA.

FROM YOUR RESEARCH, HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT?

>> THE CHARACTER IN MY BOOK EVEN BLAMES HERSELF.

WHEN I FIRST THAT HER SHE SAID WELL, THE PROBLEM IS I WASN'T DOING WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING AND WHEN I INTERVIEWED ALL OF THE VARIOUS KIND OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO TOUCHED THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE PROCESS THEY ALSO HAD WHAT I CALL THESE NARRATIVES OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

ONE SAID THE PROBLEM IS DETROITERS JUST DON'T WANT TO PAY THEIR TAXES.

ANOTHER SAID WELL, DO TRADERS -- DETROITERS BUT HASN'T TAKEN A FORD AND ANOTHER TOLD ME INSTEAD OF PAYING THEIR TAXES, THEY CHOSE TO BUY PURSES.

MY RESEARCH TELLS ME IT IS NOT A STORY OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

IT IS A STORY OF STRUCTURAL INJUSTICE.

I INTERVIEWED OVER 150 HOMEOWNERS WHO ARE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSED.

I INTERVIEWED ALMOST EVERY GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WHO TOUCHES THE PROCESS.

I INTERVIEWED INVESTORS AND EVEN TOOK A NINE MONTH COURSE AND PASS THE STATE EXAM TO BECOME A CERTIFIED MICHIGAN ASSESSOR AND SO THROUGH MY COMPREHENSIVE INVESTIGATION, I FOUND THAT AGAIN, IT IS A STRUCTURAL ISSUE.

53 TO 84% OF PROPERTIES WERE BEING ASSESSED IN VIOLATION OF THE MICHIGAN STATE CONSTITUTION.

ABOUT 30% OF DETROITERS LIVE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE SO THEY COULD NOT AFFORD THIS ILLEGALLY INFLATED PROPERTY TAXES.

THERE WAS INJUSTICE HIDDEN IN THESE VERY COMPLEX PROPERTY TAX COMPILATIONS.

RACIST POLICIES HAD YOU TRYING TO SLAY A DRAGON WITH A BUTTER KNIFE AND SO THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE, IS AGAIN, WE NEED TO MAKE THE SHIFT FROM THESE NARRATIVES OF PERSONAL IRRESPONSIBILITY AND FOCUS ON THE RACIST POLICIES, FOCUS ON THE STRUCTURAL INJUSTICE THAT IS AT PLAY HERE.

>> SO, BERNADETTE, IF THERE ARE THESE STRUCTURAL FORCES AT PLAY, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF INDIVIDUAL EFFORT AGAINST THIS, RIGHT?

IF SOMEONE FINDS THEMSELVES A VICTIM OF ONE OF THESE PREDATORY POLICIES?

WHAT CAN THEY DO?

>> BEFORE I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, I WAS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER IN SOUTH-CENTRAL L.A.

WHEN I FOUND THAT ONE IN THREE HOMES HAD COMPLETED THE PROPERTY TAX FORECLOSURE PROCESS IN THIS 80% CITY CALLED DETROIT, I COULD NOT JUST WRITE ABOUT IT AND KEEP ON MOVING SO MY STUDENTS AND I JOINED WITH OVER A DOZEN GRASSROOTS ORGANIZATIONS TO CREATE SOMETHING CALLED THE COALITION FOR PROPERTY TAX JUSTICE AND WE HAVE THREE GOALS.

NUMBER ONE IS TO STOP THESE ILLEGALLY INFLATED PROPERTY TAXES, NOT ONLY IN DETROIT, BUT THROUGHOUT THE NATION.

NUMBER TWO IS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE IN DETROIT, BEFORE THEY ARE FORECLOSED, WE CAN MAKE SURE THE TAXES THEY OWED ARE NOT ILLEGALLY INFLATED THE NUMBER THREE IS TO PROVIDE COMPENSATION.

AND SO, WE HAVE SOMETHING WE CALL THE DIGNITY RESTORATION PROJECT, AND WE ARE RAISING $10 MILLION TO COMPENSATE THE HARDEST HIT DETROITERS, AND THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT MOMENT IN THE RESTORATION MOVEMENT WRIT LARGE BECAUSE THERE IS A WHOLE DEBATE.

WHERE SHOULD WE START REPARATIONS?

SLAVERY, JIM CROW?

I AM SAYING LET'S START REPARATIONS YESTERDAY WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN DETROIT, THIS 80% LAXITY BECAUSE IF WE CAN'T GET IT RIGHT IN DETROIT WHERE THE EVIDENCE IS UNCONTESTED AND IT IS SO CLEAR THEM THAT WE LIKELY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET IT RIGHT IN GENERAL.

>> PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BERNADETTE ATUAHENE.

ALSO, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK, "PLUNDERED" .

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THIS WAS A LOVELY CONVERSATION, THANK YOU.

>> AND OF COURSE, ONE THAT REMINDS OF THE SLOGAN, NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

FINALLY TONIGHT WE REMEMBER THE LIFE OF A CHAMPION FOR PEACE, AND A LOVING FATHER, GRANDFATHER AND HUSBAND, ODETTE LIFSHITZ, AGE 84 WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDING NUMBERS OF THE NEAR OZ KIBBUTZ IN ISRAEL.

HE WAS KIDNAPPED BY THOMAS ON OCTOBER 7.

HE WAS HELD FOR MORE THAN 500 AGONIZING DAYS.

HIS FAMILY HAS NOW CONFIRMED THAT HIS BODY IS AMONGST THE REMAINS OF FOUR HOSTAGES RELEASED BY HAMAS.

SHORTLY AFTER HE WAS TAKEN, HIS DAUGHTER, SHARON, TOLD ME ABOUT HER FATHER'S UNWAVERING FIGHT FOR JUSTICE.

>> MY FATHER HAD A VERY STRONG OPINION ABOUT THINGS BUT HE ALWAYS FELT THAT YOU MAKE PEACE WITH ENEMIES, THAT OUR JOB IS TO FIND SHARED GROUND, GROUNDED IN HUMANITY, AND THAT THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE AND I DON'T THINK HISTORY SHOWS THE RECENT ALTERNATIVE.

I THINK HE FOUGHT ALL HIS LIFE FOR THE RIGHTS OF PALESTINIANS, FOR THE RIGHTS OF BEDOUINS AND SIGN IONS IN THE 70s.

HE THOUGHT THAT WAS WORTH PURSUING IN THE FACE OF AN EVER- GROWING SHIFT TO LESS COLLABORATIVE RHETORICS IN THE FACE OF HUGE SETTLEMENTS THAT WERE MADE THERE IN ORDER TO STOP THE POSSIBILITY OF THE TWO- STATE SOLUTION.

I BELIEVE IF HE WAS HERE, HE WOULD SAY THAT THIS PRESENTS A NEW OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT.

HE WAS PART OF AN ORGANIZATION OF PEOPLE FROM THE REGION THAT REGULARLY [ INAUDIBLE ] AND WOULD SIMPLY TAKE PALESTINIANS FROM THE BORDER.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT LIVING ON ANOTHER PLANET.

THEY LIVE A MILE FROM US.

WE KNOW THEY ARE THERE.

WE HEAR THEM.

WE HEAR THEIR MOSQUES.

WE HEAR THEM.

THEY HEAR US.

WE HAD RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM.

THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WERE REALLY DESTROYED WITH HAMAS TAKING CONTROL, BUT THEY ARE THERE.

WE KNOW THEY ARE THERE AND WE KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WERE OUR FRIENDS THERE.

>> SUCH STRONG WORDS REMINDING US OF THE HUMANITY THAT ENDURES BENEATH THE DARKNESS.

SHARON'S MOTHER WAS ALSO KIDNAPPED BUT WAS RELEASED EARLY ON.

WE WANT TO FINISH WITH ODETTE, AND HIS PIANO, HIS MUSIC NOW AN INDELIBLE MEMORY FOR HIS FAMILY AND ALL OF THOSE WHO SHARE THAT PAIN.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOODBYE FROM WASHINGTON.