(upbeat music) - You could meet somebody today and that person could change the course of your entire life.

That's a real thing.

You know, that's a thing that does happen to characters in this book and has happened to me personally.

- Hello, and welcome to the PBS Books Readers Club.

Today, we'll be joined by author Rachel Khong to discuss her novel, "Real Americans."

- You probably know Rachel Khong is the author of "Goodbye, Vitamin," and we know you're gonna love this book.

It is a sweeping family drama that tells the story of three generations of Chinese Americans raising questions about identity and what it means to be a real American.

- We'll also reveal our next pick for the next month's read, so stick around for that.

I'm Lauren Smith here with Heather Marie Montilla our resident librarian and the PBS Books National Director, and with Princess Weekes, an award-winning video essayist and author, and she levels up our little book club with her master's in literary theory.

So we're very grateful for that, Princess.

- You flatter me.

(laughs) - And Fred Nahhats here too.

hey Fred... - Well, hey, everyone.

And of course, the most important person in this book club is you.

We want you to share all of your thoughts in the comments as we go along today, and we hope you'll join the PBS Books Readers Club Facebook group to find and share book recommendations and discuss your favorite reads.

And please, make sure to share this event.

Friends, do not let friends miss out on great books.

- Speaking of friends, happy to be back with all of you.

- I love friends.

- What did you think of "Real Americans?"

- I really connected with it as a first-generation American myself.

I felt like so many of the themes of identity and feeling like one thing when you're here and one thing when you're somewhere else just really resonated with me, and I love how it just all came together, and some crazy twists in there too.

- So many twists and turns.

I really enjoyed it as well, and I think I have kids who are a blended family and thinking about their identity, where they belong, how they feel, what it might be to have a mother who's not the same race as them, how they maybe feel out.

So all of it resonated, and I enjoyed reading it and being transported to different times, to go to China during the Cultural Revolution.

It was incredible, I loved it.

- I thought a lot about the relationships between the generations too, as I was reading it.

You have this grandmother figure who, in the perspective of her daughter, makes some terrible mistakes, but then hearing the grandmother's backstory, you have, as a reader, a lot more empathy for her, and it just made me think about my own relationships.

Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on my mama, or my grandmother for that matter.

What do I really know about her life?

And it makes me wanna ask more questions about the people in my own family.

- Absolutely.

- Well, this one was hot from the start for me, very easy to get into.

I love the pacing, I love the really rich and defined characters, and that everything and everyone's surrounded by this air of mystery, but not like an ethereal, mystical kind of mystery, more like a, "Oh my God, what have we done?"

type of mystery.

And then you just keep going back for more because you wanna find out what happens, even as it goes through the various generations.

I could not recommend this one highly enough.

- Well, there's plenty to discuss with author Rachel Khong.

She'll be joining us in just a moment.

And we want to invite you to join the PBS Books Readers Club too.

The first thing for you to do is to sign up for our e-newsletter.

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Visit pbsbooks.org/subscribe to join.

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- Plus, as a PBS member, you'll also enjoy access to PBS Passport, the members-only section on the PBS app where you can stream full seasons of your favorite PBS shows.

Now, in May, there are a wealth of programs that celebrate Asian American, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian Heritage Month, including an incredible episode of American Masters' Amy Tan Unintended Memoir, which tells the story of the incredible author whose first novel, "The Joy Luck Club," established her as one of the most respected literary voices working today.

- PBS Passport really is so great.

If you're looking for a reason to become a member, having access to all those amazing PBS shows is a great one.

And now let's bring in the author of our featured book for this month, "Real Americans."

Rachel Khong, hi, welcome to the PBS Books Readers Club.

- Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so thrilled to be here.

I'm so thrilled that "Real Americans" resonated with you all.

So thank you for having me.

- Absolutely, it was an excellent read.

And I start off asking the question.

So this is a huge story and you decided to start it in 1999, the turn of the millennium.

And whenever there are stories that take place in the recent past, you know, you touch on the pandemic later when we jump time, but why did you choose to start it at that last section of the '90s?

Like what inspired that sort of timeline beginning?

- I was really interested in a period of time that was maybe a little bit less complicated than our own.

I think about being alive right now.

And I think there's just so much going on, I think in terms of technology, in terms of, you know, we have AI sort of on the horizon, we have emails constantly, we have so much going on.

And I think I was just interested in writing about a time that was a little bit simpler.

You know, back then we sort of worried that the world was going to end because of Y2K.

- Yeah.

- Yes.

It turned to the year 2000, we thought, oh, maybe that's the end of humanity.

And that just struck me as a more slightly innocent time.

Of course, there was so much going on in the world as well at that time, but I think I wanted to start there because it felt a little bit more manageable in some ways.

- Time is a central theme to your novel, as you've been saying, and stopping time, living longer, slowing time down.

You know, it's all things that we read about in your book.

In fact, when given the opportunity to make a wish on an ancient lotus seed, may wishes for time.

How did this wish impact May's future and legacy?

And was her wish inherited by Lily and Nick?

- Yes, I mean, her wish was inherited.

Yeah, it's a big part of the book.

Time is something that I think about a lot, I think as an American, because in America, time is treated so much as this commodity.

It's treated as something that is really valuable and really precious and something that we need to sort of dominate and take charge of.

I think a lot of us living today feel pressed for time, feel like we don't have enough of it.

And so May's wish is this very familiar one to me, you know, just desire to have more time in order to be more productive, to get more work done.

There's that aspect of it.

But I think for each of the characters in this story, they have a different attitude toward time.

So some of them, you know, like May, want to sort of use this time more wisely.

And for other characters, that's not as important.

Time to them is about being with their loved ones and just existing with the people that they love.

- Hey, Rachel, it's Fred.

Time is such a big construct and also thinking about how personal it is.

One of the more symbolic references in the book is concealing or holding on to a bracelet to maintain some connection to the past.

And I guess someone's sense of self.

Talk about the symbolism behind the bracelets and holding on.

- Yeah, I think this book is very much about what we inherit from our parents, from our grandparents.

And the bracelet is a very physical manifestation of an actual thing that's passed down from mother to child.

And yeah, I was really interested in both the physical things that we inherit, but also the less tangible ones, right?

The ones that are invisible, the sort of maybe, yeah, I was thinking a lot about just the aspects of myself, for example, that I've sort of inherited from my parents that is less obvious, the things that are less obvious than external characteristics or whatever.

Maybe just like an attitude toward life.

There are little things that I think impact who I have become.

And the bracelet was just one way of really making that tangible.

And it's also something that I think is beautiful and sort of meant to last for a long time.

I'm sort of curious throughout the book, tracing where that bracelet gets to go and the many lives that it gets to live.

- Well, first, I wanted to acknowledge and thank you for the fact that you're joining us while on your book tour.

So thank you for that.

I can see that you're in the lobby of your hotel between interviews.

So we're really grateful that you're joining us today.

So thank you for that.

- All throughout Lily and Matthew's relationship, we get this firsthand look at Lily's insecurities about being in these very white spaces, which I found very relatable.

And then when she's dating Matthew, feeling like she doesn't exactly fit in in what her relationship looks like to other people.

And I was wondering, were there experiences that you were pulling from from your own experience of navigating these white spaces?

And why did you decide to really emphasize that unease in this text?

- Yeah, I think that, you know, so Lily is, her section is set in 1999.

And hopefully some of her feelings are a little bit outdated at this point.

But she is someone who has grown up sort of fully American and she was born in America, she's raised as an American.

But there's always this sense that she has of some alienation, the sense that she doesn't quite belong because even though she feels American and that's how she sees the world, that's not necessarily how other people see her.

You know, when they view her, they sort of knew her as an outsider.

You know, they might ask her, where are you really from?

And so I think she's always had that sort of sense of not quite sitting in, not quite belonging.

And so even though she is, she feels this acceptance, she feels this love with the man that she has found and in this relationship that she's chosen for herself, there's still these external forces that are sort of acting against their relationship.

And there's no, in a relationship, it's not just the two people, it's so many people, right?

There's your histories, your family, there are the people who have an opinion about your relationship.

And so I sort of wanted to explore that, right?

There is, of course, the two main people who matter in a romantic relationship, but there are also so many other people orbiting those people.

- I wanted to ask you a little bit about the structure of the book.

The story is told from three different perspectives, three generations, you have May, her daughter, Lily, and then Lily's son, Nick.

And then we also jump around in time, starting in, like you said, Princess, pre-Y2K New York with Lily as a young professional, then skipping ahead to her son, Nick, in his teenage years, and then way back with May as she tries to escape communist China.

And then back to the future with Nick as a grown man and May as an older woman.

So talk to us about why you chose to write the story in that way.

- I think that this book is so much about how we become who we become.

And there are so many factors that go into the creation of ourselves, right?

There's, of course, the families we've been born into, our genetics, there are the choices that we've made, but also the choices that have already been made for us.

And I think historical events, the happenings of the world around us also shape who we are, right?

On a sort of larger scale, it shapes the generation that we're part of.

And so for each of these characters, they are living through these really distinct times and they are sort of doing the best that they can in the eras that they're living in.

And so I think something that was really interesting to me was the ways in which parents sometimes can't fully understand their children and vice versa, right?

We're just sort of missing these huge, these huge, yeah, there are these gaps in our understandings, right?

Because we don't know our parents fully and our parents don't know us fully.

They don't understand the entire context of who we are.

Even though we might be living in the same household, even though we might have a lot in common, there's still this huge disconnect in what we can know about each other.

So I think I was really interested in showing the perspectives of each of these individuals living in the times that they're living in so that we can sort of see the ways in which, one character might have a perspective on another character's life, but they don't have the full picture.

Only the character themselves has the full picture of who they are.

- Rachel, we are always so curious about process with our authors.

Talk about the process.

Do you outline it all at once?

Do you write it straight through?

How do you keep it all organized and then reveal this moving picture of words once you publish?

- Yes, I do not outline.

I wish I did because I think that would be a more straightforward and probably quicker process.

But I think that outlining, I don't know, for me, it would be a little bit too predictable in terms of the writing process.

It would make things a little bit too known to me.

And when I'm writing, I want to be surprised.

I want to discover things along the way.

And I think that when the writer is discovering something, the reader is also discovering something.

And so I do just sort of start writing and I keep going.

And then it's sort of in retrospect, at the end of say one very, very long task, I will look back and sort of figure out what exactly is going on and then sort of shape the book around that.

- That's incredible for an epic like this to be able to keep that all straight in your mind.

That's amazing.

- Okay, just continuing to discuss process a little bit.

I'm really interested in your research process 'cause obviously it's really clear that you took time to research what was going on in China and the revolution, the cultural revolution, and even present day going to museums and seeing signs that the amazing pottery or objects in the museums were replicas.

Can you talk a little bit about your process and your research process?

- Yes, there's so much research that went into this book.

There's absolutely the research that you mentioned, going to museums, learning about the cultural revolution.

I actually watched a lot of oral histories that were available online of survivors of the cultural revolution.

And that was so special to just see the actual people who could share their stories of this horrible time.

There was also a lot of research into the science of this book because this book does have a lot of science in it.

And so that was researching, reading a lot of articles, reading books, but it was also reaching out to scientists.

And I was able to have conversations actually over many years with geneticists essentially who could tell me more about the science itself.

They could tell me what was possible decades ago and also what's possible now.

And I think that was so invaluable.

I mean, it was so generous of them to talk with me and to share with me about their work.

It's a combination of all of these things and the research process also is very exploratory.

It helps it form the book itself.

It helps create the actual plot of the book.

I didn't go into it knowing exactly what would happen but I think through the conversations and through the reading, it really, yeah, I think got my mind going and got the book going.

- Well, since you just mentioned genetic testing I was wondering like, at what point in the novel did you realize that you wanted to include those elements into the book especially to have a deeper narrative about culture and identity and how that can be shaped by these like science?

That was such an unexpected twist in the book.

- Yeah, I think genetic, like the genetics of who we are was so important to the book because as I have mentioned it's so much a book about how we become who we become.

Genetics means like just the, I mean, it's really the backbone for so much of it.

We're all, just all of these biological beings we're all informed, created by the code and then beyond that code, there's a question of how do we shape our lives based on what we choose and the environments that we're in?

A tree has a genetic code, right?

And then it sort of becomes its own sort of individual and singular self just through its environment, so many factors, right?

Just the way that it's watered all of these things.

And so I was interested in actually discussing the genetics itself and if we could, I think as human beings decide on what we chose for our children, would we choose those things?

Would we try to stack the deck in our favor?

Would we try to make our children's lives easier?

In quotes, I think again, we don't have the full context of who our parents are, our children are, our families are so we're trying to make the best decisions that we can for these mature generations but we might not have all the information that we need.

- Different people are gonna have different takeaways from this story and in fact, readers, I'd love to hear what was your main takeaway of this story but the question at the heart of it for me as I was reading it was to forgive or not to forgive because for better or for worse, your family is a part of who you are and your identity and then because of that, they also have the power to sometimes hurt you more than anyone else and we all have to decide for ourselves whether or not we can forgive those hurts.

In your book, are you advocating one way or another forgiveness versus isolation?

- I think I'm always advocating for forgiveness and for maybe some humility, right?

Advocating I think for maybe a realization that we don't understand everything.

I totally agree with you.

This book is so much about forgiveness, about the ways in which family members hurt each other either intentionally or not and it's about, yeah, what we do with each other's differences and I think writing this book really helped me to I think understand my own family more but also understand myself more and understand ways in which, yeah, you really can't control other people, right?

You might wish-- - If only.

(all laughing) - I'm a fire sign so I'm like letting go.

How, what is that?

Who does that?

- You might wish people were different but they're just who they are, right?

And I think that people in our families might disappoint us but we're also just as disappointing to them, right?

- Yeah, it's true.

- And I disappoint anyone, so lucky you.

- And with all of that in mind, it's, yeah, I think it's making a case for just more understanding, right?

And more sort of patience and presence and love between people even when you don't fully understand where they're coming from because of course you can't.

You can't stand their full, their full, the fullness of who they are, yeah.

- That's what my therapist told me too.

(all laughing) - So just leaning into that a little bit more, if we could just delve into parents and their relationships with children and the complexities of family relationships.

You know, you have estranged parents, you have a single parent who's chosen to be a single parent because of the complexities within the book.

Can you just talk a little bit about, it sounds like this is very much, some of this is inspired from your own experience.

How did you come upon all of these twists and turns that we see?

- Oh, well, I don't actually know how much is, you know, coming from my own experience.

I mean, a lot of really wild things happen in this book and a lot of them, yeah, I think happened because of the sort of specific nature of two of these families, right?

It's about two families that sort of have worlds intersecting.

And so I think, yeah, each of the plot points really came from the characters themselves, you know, just thinking through what each character was going through, what they really wanted, what their hopes and dreams were, and what they were sort of struggling against as human beings.

And then the plot really got more intricate from there, right?

- Yes.

- And again, it's really only in retrospect that I'm able to look back and see, okay, what are the threads that I'm trying to pull out?

What am I actually trying to write about?

I don't think I start out thinking about like huge things.

It's more afterward.

I look back on the writing and I can see what I'm interested in and then I can sort of pull it out a bit more.

- Did you come up with this Sharpie trick yourself?

The idea of putting this, was that you or was that like something that you heard from someone else?

- I think it was something that I heard from someone else.

And I don't know how well it works.

I think it works well enough, but yeah, maybe it's better to maybe darn your Sharpie.

(all laughing) - So I was wondering that 'cause I've always heard nail polish, but the Sharpie was new.

But my real question is about Matthew because this book is so full of complex characters, but he is still kind of an enigma to me 'cause he is in one part this well-meaning white man who wants to do the right thing.

But then in part two, when we see his inability to really understand Lily's fears and that pulls them apart, it kind of complicates what we see of him.

So do you see Lily and Matthew as like a tragic love story or more of like a cautionary tale of the way that we can impose our desires on our partners without meaning to?

- I think it's both.

I think it's actually really complicated, right?

Like I think that what's so interesting is that romantic relationships are one of those rare places.

I mean, place.

I mean, it's one of the rare situations where you get to choose this other person that you want to spend time with, right?

Unlike a family, it's not something that you're just born into.

It's this other person is someone you can actually select from other people.

But at the same time, I think often desire itself is shaped by where we live, cultural pressures, what society deems beautiful, for example.

And so Matthew is a very conventionally attractive person, both for his appearance, but also for his wealth, right?

That's something that's very attractive in this country, essentially.

And so I think that Lily's desires are shaped both by the fact that they have a lot in common.

They both just find sort of a sense of belonging in each other.

But at the same time, she does wonder like, why do I desire this man particularly?

Is it because of some outside force?

Is it because this desire has been created in me?

And I don't think you can disentangle them, actually.

I think that they do have a real love that they share, but it's also very complicated.

- Oh, Matthew.

- I know.

- Also just P.S.

I'm really enjoying the music that your hotel is treating us to.

It's very beautiful.

- It's like very melodic, like hi girl.

- Well, Rachel, one thing that struck me as a refrain a couple of times in the book was the line, "You are not nothing."

Talk about the significance of that turn of phrase.

- Oh, yeah.

That's a phrase that, yeah, comes up between characters a few times.

I think it was something that just struck me as funny to say to someone else, "You're not nothing to me."

But I was also thinking about the fact that for each of these characters, they often have these chance encounters with other people, and those encounters change, really, the course of their lives, right?

Like you can meet somebody and then your life changes completely, and it can feel almost fated, right?

It can feel as though you were meant to meet that person and your life was meant to go a certain way.

And so I think, yeah, that phrase is so casual, and I think it also holds, and it carries a lot, you know?

I think this belief that you could meet somebody today and that person could change the course of your entire life, that's a real thing.

You know, that's a thing that does happen to characters in this book.

And has happened to me personally, right?

Like, you know, just think about the most important people in your life, like they might have just come across your path very randomly.

And so that's something that I really wanted to explore.

- Well, wealth and class play an important role in your novel.

And I love parts of your book, how it really underscores how money just seems to make things better.

I think, right, like when you go to a beach and it's a nice resort, the sand is softer.

Like, I just think everything, and your novel has aspects and highlights this.

Can money equal happiness?

And was Lily afraid to be happy?

And I almost feel like Lily has a bit of imposter syndrome.

What do you think?

- Yes, she definitely does.

You know, this is very much a book about class differences and ways in which we sometimes find ourselves, I think, especially as Americans, in spaces that we might have to adapt to.

You know, I think in America, we don't really like thinking that there are classes, but of course there are places that are just so much more, yeah, extravagant, run by money, and then there are places that are not, right?

And so I think that there is discomfort inherent in moving from one space to another.

And Lily really feels that.

You know, she has seen what it is like to be wealthy, of course, like there's a lot of depictions of it in movies and in, yeah, just in our culture, I think we have a lot of scorn about wealthy people, but it's very different to actually be in that space, right, and to feel that you're not quite part of this group.

And it's something that isn't necessarily visible, I think, to other people.

Again, I was talking earlier about the fact that she feels fully American, but might not appear that way to other people.

I think with the class aspects, you know, she's often in these spaces where she might look as though she belongs more than she feels like she belongs, right?

So again, it's this sort of switching of, or this sort of disconnect in the way that a person feels versus the way that they are appearing to others.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Well, all of your characters were very rich and nuanced.

They all made mistakes, they all had flaws.

Sometimes as a reader, they drove you a little bit crazy.

But the way that you wrote the book also forces to have great empathy for each one of them.

Is there one of the characters that you empathize with the most?

- I don't think I can pick a favorite.

I think that all of them frustrated me and all of them also really felt like family members to me.

You know, I felt that I cared for each one of them, even when they made terrible decisions.

I might feel the most sympathetic to May, the character of May, because she has had to make really difficult decisions throughout her life, and she has fewer choices and much less privilege than the other characters in the book do.

And I also understand where she's coming from.

You know, she has this real desire to sort of prove herself to her family and make something of her life despite these restrictions in her life.

And so, yeah, I mean, I think she's pretty, I don't know if I can curse on this, but she's, she is, she's a tough cookie, let's say.

- Yeah.

(all laughing) - I'm not gonna use that instead.

- That's a good way of putting it.

I really relate it to aspects of the culture identity aspects of the book of feeling like as you get further and further away, as each generation passes, the struggle to stay attached to that identity.

'Cause my parents are both immigrants, and so I had that same anxiety of like, I don't speak like them.

If I go to their home countries, I'm American.

And so I wonder in your own experience as someone who was viewed as an other despite being American, how did you, how is it like putting that element into a book?

'Cause I feel like it's so difficult to talk about so it's such a deeply personal identity issue in a text.

Like what was it like learning how to pull back and put in those elements to it?

- That's a wonderful question.

That is something that I think about a lot.

How do you sort of represent that experience?

Because it's not the same for each family.

Like every family is so specific and every culture is so specific.

And I can't even necessarily represent Chinese culture.

My family is actually from Malaysia.

We are ethnically Chinese, we're not from China.

And so there are so many, yeah, I think it's just so individual to each family.

And so I really wanted to make this feel specific to this particular family, right?

Like the book is very much about their story and it does touch on some aspects of the immigrant experience, but it's not meant to say, oh, this is what it's like for all immigrants, right?

I think the hope is that if some immigrant children and parents are able to see themselves in the story, that's beautiful.

And that's something that I hope for because this is a book that I wanted to write for someone like myself who sort of felt in between two worlds, or maybe even more than two, in between worlds and not quite fully belonging in one space.

And so I wrote it for that reason and I wrote it to sort of just, yeah, like tell the person who might feel similar to me that that's okay, that you don't have to belong in one space, you can belong in many spaces, but also what is belonging anyway, right?

Like I think that all of the characters, there are spaces in which then some of the characters should belong, you know, there's no reason they shouldn't feel as though they belong and yet they don't quite feel that way.

So I think, yeah, I think in a lot of ways the characters are just made always to feel like other and I do wonder a little bit if that's sort of because of where they're living, right?

Because America itself, I think, might suggest to different ones of like different people at varying times, like you don't quite belong here.

So I just like question the, yeah, question the sort of location itself and the sort of values that the country sort of puts forth.

- Well, I think even just what you just said was really interesting because like I love Michelle Yeoh and like she's also Malaysian, but she always has like said that she shorthands her identity to fit what Americans view her as.

So she'll say like, so people assume that she's Chinese even though she's not.

And I think that's kind of what you're saying is that we all kind of do this shorthand when we don't appear as if we have the same cultural, American is that people expect us to have.

So I just, yeah.

So I just, I love what you just said.

- And I think it almost goes back to what is a real American, right?

We have this rich, diverse nation and who actually belongs?

Like, what does belonging mean?

And this whole question that she's bringing up about other, like we all feel like others in different spaces and environments.

And I think that your book addressed that so incredibly and I really, really enjoyed it.

So following up on that, if you could make a wish like May, what would that wish be?

- Oh, that's a hard one.

I mean, I think that....

I think that I might make the same wish as May.

I think that's why I gave May that wish.

And I think it's a wish that I also sort of wish I didn't have.

I wish I could just feel contentment with the time that I do have and the hours that we all have and sort of the limited nature of life itself.

But I do think it's appealing, right?

It would be appealing to get to stop time, to get to have more time, to get to be in charge, to feel a little bit more in charge of my own life.

So, yeah, I think that might be it.

Do you guys have ideas?

- I don't know.

I think time is a good one, but I like what you said about like, if I could wish to not care so much about time, maybe that would be the better wish, like the contentment, maybe that's content.

- See, that's a smart answer 'cause I'm just like, oh man, if I could hold time and procrastinate, that would just fit so well.

- If that's one of those things that backfires.

- Yeah, you're like, oh yeah, so contentment, to be at peace.

- But time, right?

Like just thinking about the characters were able to slow down time, to be able to have enough time to do things.

I was like, oh my gosh, like what a gift that is.

- A gift and a curse.

- A curse, agreed, agreed.

- Into my darkness, I just wanna be able to control people.

So I don't have to be annoyed by anyone.

- You wanna control people.

- Yeah, let's just go straight, let's just cut the filler out.

- Oh my gosh, it's so funny.

Well, Rachel, a lot of our book clubbers will have read your last book, "Goodbye Vitamin."

Do a little compare and contrast for us.

How was writing "Real Americans" different from writing "Goodbye Vitamin"?

Did you need to approach them in a different way?

- It was just a totally different experience.

"Goodbye Vitamin" is a much shorter book.

It's probably half of the size of this book.

And I think my life just looked very different when I wrote this book.

It was much more stable, I would say, a little bit less, I was less in my tumultuous 20s, right?

I was a little bit outside of that.

And so, yeah, so it just was much more daily, I would say.

I came to this book every day and thought deeply about its themes.

I stayed with these characters, you know, for months and then years.

And so it's just, yeah, it's a sort of different reading experience for that reason.

It's instead of fragments, it's these sort of longer, more traditional looking narratives.

And it's hopefully a story that you can get immersed in and that sort of takes you away from the real world for a little while.

The hope is that you would be sort of absorbed into these characters' lives and to, yeah, just feel like a part of their world.

- Thank you, definitely accomplished that.

- Yeah, I love that you say you spent years with these characters because, of course, your readers, all of us, develop our own relationship with them.

All the same, I'm fascinated by character development.

I love it.

I love, love character redemption, especially.

Now, thinking about May, she presents early on as sort of a unfeeling, unflinching mother, but then in the end, given her backstory, what we learned about her, we are then just so rooting for her as a grandmother.

Talk about that development and that journey that you've taken us on with May.

- Yeah, again, she makes some questionable decisions for sure, and there are things that, yeah, I do sort of judge her for, but I think that the hope is that, yeah, that I think the judgment is a little bit softened by what you know about her life, by the fact that she had some really tough decisions to make and she was really limited in her options and she really overcame a lot of obstacles, right, in her own life.

And so I think that is sort of the hope is that, that despite the judgment you might feel for the characters, you can understand them a little bit, too.

- Absolutely.

- For sure.

- Rachel, we like to end our PBS Books Readers Club conversations with a little bit of a lightning round if you're up for it.

- Sure.

- We ask a lot of our authors the same question, so it's always interesting to see what different people say.

So Rachel, as a child, did you always know that you were a writer or is it something that you sort of grew into?

- I did always know.

I didn't know that you could be a writer because I didn't know any writers, my parents weren't friends with any writers, so I didn't realize that that could actually be a job.

But I loved writing, I loved making up stories and mostly I loved reading.

I loved going to the library, I loved checking out huge sacks of books and then spending all day inside reading.

- What's your ideal writing setup?

Are you a morning person, a night owl?

Do you like to work in an office, in a coffee shop or do you like to mix it up?

- Or hotel lobby, apparently.

(all laughing) - I don't think I could write here.

A little too distracting, the people watching would be too intense.

I do like mixing it up, I love writing in the morning, but sometimes a coffee shop is really fun because you can sort of overhear some conversations, there's some eavesdropping in this book.

- Eavesdropping is always, I think, yeah, it can spur some creativity.

- It's a favorite pastime of mine.

- Absolutely.

When it comes to reading, book, e-reader or audio book?

- Oh, or physical book?

Yeah, I love a hardcover book, but on Book Tour, I have my Kindle and it's loaded up with so many books because it's really efficient for traveling.

And I'm just starting to get into audio books actually because we recently moved to Los Angeles and there's a lot more driving than I had been used to.

So excited to get into audio books now too.

- Two-part question, in your opinion, has there ever been a movie that was better than the book?

And if "Real Americans" became a movie, who would play your main characters?

- Oh, that's a hard question.

I'm gonna just, you know, to be faithful to novelists, say that the movie is never better than the book.

(all laughing) - Good answer.

- The book is always better.

Oh my gosh, that's such a great question about the actors.

And I will have to say that I don't, you know, I recently loved the movie "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once."

So maybe Stephanie Hsu, who plays the daughter character in that movie.

- I love her so much.

I have a huge crush on her.

- All right, Rachel, favorite book from your childhood?

- Oh, I loved a book called "Half Magic" by Edward Eager, which was a book that is about some kids who find a coin that grants them just half of their wish.

I guess it's related to my book a little bit.

- Yes, totally.

- But they only get half their wish so they have to, you know, do some thinking about that.

Like sometimes they have to wish for double their wish, sometimes they only get half their wish and that, it just hijinks ensue.

That's really fun.

- Favorite books you've read in the last year?

- Oh...

So many.

I just finished a book called "Enter Ghosts" by Isabella Hammad that was beautiful.

It's about a troupe of actors putting on Hamlet in the West Bank.

So it's just a intricate and beautiful story.

I just read a book called "Martyr" by my friend Kaveh Akbar.

And that is a book about a young man who's sort of, I mean, it sounds so grandiose, but it is just a young man who sort of wants a reason to live and wants to know what his life is all about, should be about.

But it's beautifully written and it's very, it's just so full.

You know, it's one of those books that is just like really brimming with life and with humor and with sadness.

- What's the best advice you've ever received either writing or otherwise?

- The advice that maybe comes from the book itself or I think the thing that the book teaches me is, it's sort of this reminder to be present and to maybe not always be existing in the past or existing in the future.

And that's something that the book taught me and is teaching me.

You know, I don't think I fully learned it, but it's something that I want to learn and that I want to, yeah, hold with me.

I love that, yeah.

- Okay, and turning that around, similar theme.

What advice would you give to aspiring writers?

- Yes, I would say be stubborn, stick with it.

The main thing is showing up and not giving up.

That's how you reach the end.

So yeah, be stubborn.

- That's great, very good advice.

And finally, Rachel, is there anything that you'd like to say to your readers?

- I just wanna say thank you.

I mean, it's been remarkable hearing from readers.

It's so special to get to talk to people about this book.

I think the writer's job is only half of it.

You know, like I write the book, but the reader has to bring their half to reading the book and they have to bring their own experiences, their own thoughts, their own philosophies, right?

And you sort of co-create the book with me.

So I'm just really thankful for that time, for the attention, for all the thought that you bring to the work that I have made.

And this doesn't happen really without readers.

It's all about just that relationship, right?

And meeting on the page itself and sort of creating a new thing together.

- That's so wonderful.

- Absolutely.

- Rachel Khong, thank you so much for joining the PBS Books Readers Club.

It's been so wonderful to talk to you.

- Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for putting up with this very public space that I'm in.

- It's the true life of a writer.

- Exactly.

- Yes, for sure.

- Yeah, I mean, that's the full experience.

- Very much on the road right now.

Yeah, lots of different beds, lots of different meals, and yeah, just getting from place to place.

But I hope to meet some readers on the road and I think that would be, yeah, it's just part of the honor and privilege.

- Well, if you haven't read it already, I'm sure "Real Americans" is at the top of your book list.

You can pick up a copy at your local library or bookstore or download the ebook when you support your local PBS station.

- Yeah, we're gonna reveal our next PBS Books Readers Club pick in just a moment, but first, remember that as a member of your local station, you'll also get access to PBS Passport, where you can stream more amazing PBS shows to celebrate Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander Heritage Month, everything from "Independent Lens," "The Donut King," to "American Experience," "Plague at the Golden Gate," to that incredible "American Masters" about the author of "The Joy Luck Club," Amy Tan.

Just $5 a month makes you a member of your local PBS station giving you access to all of the amazing shows in Passport, including the extended edition of this interview with Rachel Khong.

- And your PBS stickers, don't forget that, and get your ebook download of "Real Americans" or any of our featured reads.

Just click the link in the description or visit pbsbooks.org/donate, and you'll be taken right to your local PBS station's giving page.

After you complete your donation, you'll get an email from your station with a special code to download your ebook.

- Yeah, every station's donation page is a little different, so you may need to search a little bit to find the PBS Books gifts, but stick with us because your support makes this Reader's Club possible.

- If you're not in a position to donate, you can still help by sharing this video and leaving us a comment, like, or love.

And now my friends, it is time to reveal our PBS Books Reader's Club selection for next month.

Fred, let's have you do it.

You do the honors this time.

- Oh, I would love to.

Our next pick is "Mrs. Quinn's Rise to Fame" by Olivia Ford, a charming story that follows the 77-year-old British home baker, Jenny, as she finds herself competing on her favorite primetime baking show.

Delighting in her newfound independence, her baking star begins to rise.

As we all know, great recipes stir up all kinds of memories and emotions.

For Jenny, a simple cottage loaf brings back the moment her life changed forever, and that threatens to unearth the secret she's been carrying for decades.

- It's a story of redemption, heart, and great food, inspiring us to chase our dreams at any age.

- And it's the perfect complement to "The Great American Recipe," which airs this summer on PBS.

- Join us for our chat with author Olivia Ford on June 26th, and be sure to submit your questions for her by joining the PBS Books Readers Club Facebook group, and they could be axed on our next episode.

- We'll also have more book recommendations in the PBS Books e-newsletter.

Visit pbsbooks.org/subscribe.

- We are so glad to have you as part of the PBS Books Readers Club.

If you love this conversation, please consider making a donation to your local PBS station so we can keep our book club going.

Click the link in the description or visit pbsbooks.org/donate.

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- Thanks so much for reading along with the PBS Books Readers Club.

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